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Luxuri last won the day on July 26

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  1. If anyone is feeling such levels of animosity or frustration towards an event fight like CTK, I strongly advise they do something else in the game (there's enough content besides CTK) or step back and calm down. The fight offers vanity items or baskets which can be collected elsewhere. It's a fun little fight which is challenging and offers good bragging rights but come on, it really isn't that important. Anyway, towards the points raised. Yes, this fight is a testing grounds for DDA. Yes, it was also like this last year. Why can't we do the testing in house ourselves or with our testers? Because we just cannot gather enough data that way to provide good insight into balancing. The amount of data we have already collected since CTK was introduced far outstrips what we could have done ourselves. I think we've even said elsewhere that CTK is being used to test DDA. If you don't like this, don't do it. It's that simple. Regarding bombrings, these are a problem and have been for a while. The damage formula for bombrings will be changed in the utility patch (also noted elsewhere by myself). No, this is not because of over-geared players; bombrings' formulae are not influenced by equipment. The formula itself is broke and players were using it as they were expected to, but this will be fixed and then balanced around the data we have. The utility role itself was a plaster fix for - let's be honest - useless jobs in MH. With the utility patch, and onwards to MH3, where we will be making more jobs' inherent skills more use or unnerfing a lot of skills, the utility role skills will likely change to reflect this. It has been argued to us time and time again that people do not want a game-within-a-game like MH has been which has been our motivation for doing these changes. But there will have to be a give and take for good balancing to take place. If anyone has good suggestions or other insight which the data cannot provide (e.g. how the fight feels, etc), I'll happily read and integrate these suggestions into our design plans. Whining or crying will not influence our design decisions; they never have and they never will.
  2. This is a great idea and not one I had thought of initially. It sort of runs into the same issue whereby we don't know at the time the damage is registered (and not dealt) how much damage will be reduced at the time of calculation. However, I could see us doing something whereby when you hit the mob, and the total damage accrued has not reached a DDA threshold, the damage shown is "100", i.e. no reduction is done. Then if you continue doing damage to the mob and the total raises above a threshold, then all other damage would be shown as "80" for example, i.e. the total damage accrued has now hit the first threshold of 20% reduction. As damage continues, it could show "50" to show a 50% threshold. I do like this idea I think. It shows players when they have dealt enough damage to cross a threshold and how much the reduction is after crossing a threshold. We have decided internally that the DDA thresholds and reductions will never be secret in MH so this does, at least, give some in game feedback for DDA. Good job!
  3. Your comparison of the Tank role with the Healer role is actually arguing for the design route we have taken, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to get across. It is absolutely true that any class can whack on some resist gear and go play Tank. The only tools really required to tank within MH content were given to tanks through the role skills (Sentinel and inherent aggro generation). Not every class can fulfil the Healer role without significant changes to their underlying repertoire of skills, which argues for limiting the role. I admit I also dislike having one role limited while the rest are open but such is life. I definitely disagree with Genetic screaming it is a capable solo Healer; if anything it is a whimper "I can do some healing I swear! Just everyone group up - oh now we're being targeted by a big flashy AoE - but don't worry I can use SPP to he- oh wait I ran out of slim whites, my bad ". Jokes aside, I'm going to share the list of skills Hector made that I mentioned in the first post. He can say more about this later if he likes so I will only say a wee bit about it in relation to what we're discussing. Looking at this list, there is no reason why I would take a Genetic over an AB in a fresh run. And here is the crux of the pro-Genetic Healer argument: farming groups would rather higher DPS than take a "dead-weight" Healer. The current Great Monsters are on farm and (frankly) underpowered for end-game meaning that those groups don't require a full Healer. Instead they would rather push more DPS and thus any improvement over AB's DPS (which is any class let's be honest) means quicker runs. And here's my personal opinion on the situation with my knowledge of what we have roadmapped. Considering the Great Monsters we have planned, Genetic would be an awful Healer. People would then push us into buffing them for the Healer role even further which just isn't worth the development time at the minute. But things do change and if their skill set were to expand - à la Gravity rework - or we found spare time to balance the class as a Healer, or if a significant portion of our players really wanted the option, then it could happen. I do not think it is worthwhile for us to take the time to do it currently, however, not with MH3 still unreleased.
  4. Yes we will update Summoner skill descriptions in some way to show these changes. The new item does not remove the MH status changes, only Sanus will do that. It will be craftable in some way. Other Genetic skills will be addressed in the Utility role patch. We focussed on their healing-related skills for this patch. Limiting the Healer role in this way allows us to better design content around some tank, a healer and DPS/utility. We know exactly what tools Healers have in their kit and can therefore make use of these without consideration of fringe cases (e.g. how could a SN or Genetic Healer deal with this intensive healing phase? This limits design). Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying here, but AB being the best healer in the game by a stupidly large margin means any other Healer role class has to be balanced to the AB's power level. This means bringing them up to the AB level like we have done with Summoner. With that said, it's my opinion that Summoners may be taken by more skilful parties who do not need the high throughput healing that ABs offer and instead look to hybridise their Summoner to perform DPS as well as heal when necessary. Whether or not that happens is yet to be seen. Like I've said a few times already, sadly AB's healing power is so comparatively outrageous there's no real way to make, say, a Summoner's healing skills "more needed" than any AB skill that can do the same (and frequently even exceed it). I agree it feels cheap to "take" skill effects. Initially we had even just planned to give Healer role Summoners AB skills, but this just turned them into a cat AB and we definitely didn't like that. In the end we sought to keep at least some of Summoner's class identity by merging in some (what we deemed) necessary healing abilities into their kit.
  5. Good point, will bring it up next meeting! Yes the Utility role patch will include us examining all classes that generally fit into the Utility role. There will also be other content, including some new shadow gear (which has still to be decided). They will continue to work as they do currently. Some skills have had their effects change, like Roar and Dragoon Jump which used to inflict stun. Those skills now inflict these new MH status effects which can be removed with the new Sanus skill instead of the old skills.
  6. These are the patch notes for what we currently have done for the Healer role patch. Everything here is liable to change. Numbers are very likely to change. This content is still undergoing active testing and so is not set in stone. Monster Hunting This patch is dedicated to fine-tuning and expanding the Healer role. A dev blog discussing these features can be read here. Summoner may now take the Healer role. To make balancing easier, and so that one healer may not be preferred over another, we have attempted to standardise skills between Arch Bishops and Summoners. Therefore a number of Summoner skills now have expanded functionalities similar to Arch Bishop skills. An in depth list is given in the dev blog. These skill effects only apply for the Summoner has taken the Healer role. Skill effects remain unchanged from their previous effects if the Summoner is not in the Healer role. Fresh Shrimp Now does an initial heal. This calculation mirrors that of Heal (within MH). The Healing over Time (HoT) effect now heals for half the initial heal. Spirit of Sea effect: Heal effect is doubled. Tasty Shrimp Party Grants Fresh Shrimp's new effects with an area of effect. Tuna Belly No longer does a percentage heal. Instead it works from a calculation that mirrors Highness Heal (within MH). Spirit of Sea effect: Cooldown is reduced to 1 second. Tuna Party No longer does a percentage heal. Instead it works from the same calculation as Tuna Belly. Applies a shield based on amount healed. Spirit of Sea effect: Shield health is doubled. Arclouse Dash Now also applies Assumptio. Grooming Now also applies Kyrie Eleison. Purring Takes Grooming's new effects. Hide Now takes the effect of Offertorium. No longer gives Hide. Reduces Aggro generated by 50% for duration. New skills for the Healer role have been added. Sanus Cures Great Monster-related debilitating status effects, namely: Disorientate, Incapacitate, Dizzy and Snooze. Celeritas Grants AoE Increase AGI and Blessing. For Acolyte-based classes, this will be based on your known skill levels of Inc AGI, Blessing, Canto and Clementia. For Dorams, a base version will be used with Inc AGI and Blessing at skill level 10. Other skill changes: The amount healed by Heal is calculated as if you had cast Highness Heal before this patch. After all other bonuses, Highness Heal will receive a x2 modifier. Coluseo Heal has been reverted to official behaviour. King's Grace now has a flat 100 second cooldown regardless of level used. Kagerou's Pure soul has a fixed cooldown of 30 seconds. The heal part of Shield Spell now has an irreducible 60 second cooldown. If you cast level 3 Shield Spell and the random effect is the heal, it will instead cast the other effect at level 3. Gentle Touch Cure now removes a stack of Fester, similar to Cure and Detoxify. It now also has a 30 second cooldown similar to these skills. Golem Soul has had its cooldown reduced to 55 seconds (from 100) and its duration increased to 60 seconds (from 40). Kaupe now has a 15 second cooldown. Pain Killer has been re-enabled within Monster Hunter content, but can only target Genetic classes (either yourself or another Genetic class). Potion Pitcher and Slim Potion Pitcher have had their formulae simplified and randomness reduced. See the Dev Blog for more details. Developer's Note: These skills should now be useful and can be used as fairly decent off-heal skills. Overall, these should now feel like the Genetic's answer to a Priest's Heal and Coluseo Heal, albeit weaker. A number of skills and status changes which did previously not generate Aggro, now do so. This includes, but is not limited to, skills like Divinity's HoT, Potion Pitcher and Refresh. The healing penalty within Monster Hunting maps now only applies to "healing classes", i.e. Priests and Summoners. This means, for example, the healing amount from the Heal skill used by Monks or Crusaders will no longer be penalised. The Healer role now has an inherent -20% after-cast delay granted by the Divinity skill. Developer's Note: We feel like this should help a lot of healers starting out in MH and to bridge the gap between newbies and highly geared players, whilst still being useful to the latter. The Role Manager has been updated to include a short spiel about the Healer role, its skills and how Aggro interacts with healing. Added a new item, "Herbal Remedy", a special Monster Hunter only item that replaces Panacea, Green Potions, Cure All, etc. Developer's Note: We have added this to cut down on the amount of items that were required to be carried in MH. The other items will be disabled within MH and the new item will have a short cast time but will remove all common status effects the items it replaces removes. Racial resists have been capped at 90% reduction. Developer's Note: Previously racial resists could easily reach 100%, trivialising certain fights and mechanics. We will review this change later and decide if further changes needs to be made, a la elemental resists. Please read the dev blog for more information. We have changed around a number of status changes that Great Monsters inflict on players. Flash Bomb and Garronath's Dragoon Jump now inflicts 'Disorientated'. Shock Trap now inflicts 'Incapacitate'. Roar now inflicts 'Dizzy' (same as from Dizzyring). Nysori's Sleepring now inflicts 'Snooze'. Developer's Note: There were originally a number of disparate status changes used for these skills which caused problems. For example, Roar used RO Stun which, although we force started, would still be modified by stats in certain cases. These status changes are now unified for players and mobs and gives us greater control of balance. Climactic Fury now has a blue damage bubble (à la Taekwon skills) when used with maximum Fury stacks. Developer's Note: "Feel the impact!" Fixed a large oversight which meant Aggro generated by Healers was much lower than intended. Developer's Note: We have only recently started to track healing numbers within MH so we don't have a large amount of data to better balance Aggro generation for Healers at the minute. We'll keep a close eye on how this works in practice after the patch in case there are large imbalances. Fixed Garronath no longer using Dragoon Jump to leave the zone he is in. Fixed Great Monsters being able to be blinded.
  7. Hi all and welcome again to yet another MH dev blog! The second in the series of role patches, this time we are concentrating on the Healer role. We are taking the time to describe our changes and rationale to you all before these changes are applied to the game; therefore, these changes are not yet in game. In our efforts to increase transparency we are taking the time to announce the patch notes before we apply these to the live server. We will be looking to include these changes in a maintenance in at least a week's time (big disclaimer: obviously maintenance days change and can do so at short notice but the minimum amount of time to pass will be a week). To clarify: there is a maintenance planned soon, which will not include anything listed here. We don't exactly know when this content will be patched because we are still testing, so please be patient in waiting for it. BIGGEST DISCLAIMER Numbers are liable to change as we test. Nothing in here is set in stone. Don't be surprised if we change things. With that out of the way, let's dive in! This first post will be dedicated to the dev blog and then the second post will detail the patch notes. Healer Role Healing re-balance We have gone through pretty much all skills that heal and rebalanced these amounts. For the "main" healers, these are: The amount healed by Heal is calculated as if you had cast Highness Heal before this patch. After all other bonuses, Highness Heal will receive a x2 modifier. Coluseo Heal has been reverted to official behaviour. This will boost the healing capabilities of the Healer role across the board. The healer role was always a bit of a stickler during initial conceptualisation of MH content due to the fact that healing in RO is super duper basic and overwhelmingly dominated by Arch Bishop. We made the decision very early on to therefore limit the healer role to only ABs due to this. As I've said elsewhere on the forums, even the second closest class to AB lacks a lot of tools compared to AB. But, with that said, we were never particularly happy to limit the role. Therefore, in this patch, we are expanding the healer role to include Summoners! Summoner There were a lot of ideas as to how we could approach Summoner to make them eligible for the Healer role without being completely worthless. What we all would have liked to have done is fully customise the class from the ground up but this has obvious limitations in time and effort, as well as invoking the larger, over-arching debate around customisation in MH and NovaRO in general. In the end, Hector drew up a very good list of skills and buffs (with categories like "must haves", "nice to haves" or "unique") available to both classes so we could compare these. Altogether we pitched in on the balancing and decided to share some necessary effects to Summoners but whilst also keeping their class identity intact. Important note: these skill changes apply only to Summoners who take the Healer role. If a Summoner enters MH as a, for example, Damage role, their skills will remain in the same state as they are currently. I'll list each of these expanded functionalities for you to read. The abridged list is given in the patch notes in the second post of this thread. (Please note, "Heal" with a capital H refers to the Heal skill from Acolytes. I write the word heal a lot in this post so that may need clarified!) Fresh Shrimp Now does an initial heal. This calculation mirrors that of Heal. The Healing over Time (HoT) effect now heals for half the initial heal. Spirit of Sea effect: Heal effect is doubled. We required that Summoners had a "bread-and-butter" common, spammable heal skill. We decided this would be Fresh Shrimp, but we also decided to keep the HoT effect to somewhat differentiate it with ABs. As you'll note, each of these skills still keeps their Spirit of Sea effects to maintain class identity. Tasty Shrimp Party Grants Fresh Shrimp's new effects with an area of effect. Analogue to Coluseo Heal that allows for AoE healing. Tuna Belly No longer does a percentage heal. Instead it works from a calculation that mirrors Highness Heal. Spirit of Sea effect: Cooldown is reduced to 1 second. Big heal for Summoners that mimics Highness Heal. Tuna Party No longer does a percentage heal. Instead it works from the same calculation as Tuna Belly. Applies a shield based on amount healed. Spirit of Sea effect: Shield health is doubled. As you may notice reading these skill changes, Summoners are not meant to compete directly with AB's healing throughput so we have given them other ways to heal with a potentially high skill ceiling but high reward if used correctly with shields and HoTs. Arclouse Dash Now also applies Assumptio. Another key status in the Priest kit is Assumption that we figured would be best to also give to Summoners. Grooming Now also applies Kyrie Eleison. Kyrie Eleison is an integral skill to the Priest and AB skill tree that we decided is an important part in how the Healer role manages its job. Purring Takes Grooming's new effects. Hide Now takes the effect of Offertorium. No longer gives Hide. Reduces Aggro generated by 50% for duration. Offertorium is an important effect to increase healing in a pinch. Combining this with Hide seems a bit silly but given the uselessness of the skill within MH, this seemed like a good home. Also links into the Aggro system by reducing Aggro generated during its duration Like I mentioned above, we are not intending Summoner to be on the same power-level as AB nor are they meant to compete directly with their healing numbers. Instead, Summoners may be seen as the more involved healer with a higher skill ceiling due to its use of shields and HoTs. Hopefully this breathes a new life of air into the healing meta of MH and allows for those who want more challenge to try it out. New Skills Those who are astute may still notice there are gaps in the Summoner's healing repertoire. Enter these two new skills tied to the Healer role: Sanus Removes Disorientate, Incapacitate, Dizzy and Snooze status effects. Sanus is an esuna/cure/recovery type skill that removes special MH debilitating statuses. More on these later. Celeritas Grants AoE Increase AGI and Blessing. For Acolyte-based classes, this will be based on your known skill levels of Inc AGI, Blessing, Canto and Clementia. For Dorams, a base version will be used with Inc AGI and Blessing at skill level 10. Celeritas plugs the gaps for Summoners who cannot acquire Increase AGI and Blessing, two almost compulsory buffs in MH and RO generally. For ABs, Celeritas allows them to free up a hotkey slot (the two skills are used so frequently together, we figured why not combine them?) which can never be underestimated! For Summoners, this covers the obvious hole in their Healing role. Off-healing After this, we looked at "off-healing". If you aren't familiar with this parlance, this is heals done by other members of the party who are not the Healer role. Originally these were hit pretty hard as we did not have the time to balance them. We've gone back over them and made some key changes that should allow classes with self-healing capabilities to do so in a pinch; however, they should never be allowed to take-over the main healing needs of the party. The healing penalty within Monster Hunting maps now only applies to "healing classes", i.e. Priests and Summoners. This means, for example, the healing amount from the Heal skill used by Monks or Crusaders will no longer be penalised. Classes in the Healer role should see no differences in their heal amounts arising from this change. King's Grace now has a flat 100 second cooldown regardless of level used. The heal part of Shield Spell now has an irreducible 60 second cooldown. If you cast level 3 Shield Spell and the random effect is the heal, it will instead cast the other effect at level 3. Gentle Touch Cure now removes a stack of Fester, similar to Cure and Detoxify. It now also has a 30 second cooldown similar to these skills. Golem Soul has had its cooldown reduced to 55 seconds (from 100) and its duration increased to 60 seconds (from 40). Kaupe now has a 15 second cooldown. Potion Pitcher and Slim Potion Pitcher have had their formulae simplified and randomness reduced. For Potion Pitcher (PP) and Slim Potion Pitcher (SPP), we have removed the random element from potions. In MH, PP potions will always take the highest value (e.g. for white potions, this is 405) and SPP potions will always take the lowest value (e.g. for slim white potions, this is 325). The cooldowns have also been reduced, to 5 and 12 seconds respectively, and we have simplified their formulae. Now, only your skill levels and the target's vitality or intelligence stat will play a part in the healing formula. The amounts otherwise remain unchanged. We have done this to allow Genetics to retain some of their class identity in healing but without being able to solo-heal the hardest content (which should always require a Healer role). Increased Aggro interaction A lot of skills which healed previously did not generate Aggro due to an oversight in the Aggro system. This has been fixed and anyone who uses healing skills should see an increase in Aggro from doing so. As always, bugs involving the Aggro/AI systems are hard to find/identify/fix, so please let us know if you feel something's off. These things are often balanced on "feel" due to the nature of the content so do let us know either on the forums on in Discord. Healer tutorial Similar to the Tank role patch, the Role Manager will give a short tutorial explaining the improved Healer role and generally give people new to MH a better idea of their job in a party. Unique MH Status Effects We've gone through all the MH status effects (also called status changes, or SCs for short) and unified these and given them names so you guys can refer to them correctly. These are: Disorientated From Flash Bomb and Garronath's Dragoon Jump. Incapacitate From Shock Trap. Dizzy Monster Roars will now inflict players with Dizzy. This is the same as the Dizzy from Dizzyring. Snooze This is inflicted with Sleeprings, including Nysori's Sleepring. We've done this to increase clarity in what status effect you were being inflicted with. Due to this, we could then implement the Sanus skill and generally create a stronger foothold for SCs in MH instead of this weird confusing state we had before (Dragoon Jump caused stun but then that could be reduced but wasn't actually stun... weird). Racial Resists Racial resists will now be capped at 90% reduction. This was a huge oversight on our point to let this slip through and, to be honest, should have been implemented since day one with the elemental resists changes. In the interests of transparency, we actually wanted to hit racial resists much harder than this change. However, we took on board the lessons and suggestions from you all in the GX-related discussions and decided instead to implement this change slowly so that we can gauge the balance. So we may change racial resists in the future even further, to bring it inline with the way elemental resists work in MH, if we aren't happy with the balance situation still. I can say categorically, though, that we would not reduce racial resists further than elemental, with the farthest we'd go is to the same level as elemental resists. Let us know your opinions on this change below. The Future Thanks for sticking with this post and reading it in its entirety! A little note on our development schedule to round off this post then. Our next patch is the Utility role patch and will likely be the largest role patch of the three. As a reminder, the Damage role will not be getting a standalone patch. We'll be looking at rounding off the role and classes that generally play in that position in the party. We will also be using that patch to round off any final balancing of MH2 before we "freeze" the balance state until MH3. That means, unless arething is very obviously game-breaking in MH, we will not be coming back to MH2 and doing further balance changes. This will allow us to concentrate fully on MH3 and moving onwards to the future. We're really excited about this and hopefully we can share with you soon what we've been working on. The next post will be the patch notes - mostly just a condensed list of this blog. Until next time!
  8. So firstly I wanted to say thanks for starting the thread and keeping it fairly civil for an MH thread! It's good to know people are still invested and interested in MH content as it really gives us further motivation to keep working on delivering cool cutting-edge content like this. I just wish the context was more positive! I'm not going to address the thread topic in this reply - someone else (or I) will make another post for that - but I wanted to explain the relative silence on the MH front in the last few weeks. It basically boils down to summer taking number one priority and the majority of the staff shifting development to that. I've still been working on MH though, but a lot of decisions require team input (we've recently expanded team interaction with MH development as per our pledges to improve how the content is created) so instead I've been putting hours into creating, testing and perfecting MH3 systems. So to that end, we're actually further ahead in our MH3 development schedule than planned but slightly behind on delivering the role patches. Speaking of role patches, another one of our pledges was to pre-announce all MH changes at least a week in advance. In the coming days, we will be posting the healer role patch dev blog and accompanying patch notes for everyone to read and so they can prepare for the changes. That's basically all I wanted to say, that development is resuming after a brief pause and so a dev blog will be appearing soon, and that we'll write another reply to answer the thread topic of GXs.
  9. Hi again everyone. In my last post which was in response to Tokei, I proposed an open staff forum on the points raised in the thread as a "resolution" to people's concerns. This meeting took place last night with a good majority of the staff members in attendance in at least some capacity. I'm going to fill you all in on what we discussed and what we're going to do in the future. I came up with four key points for discussion that would drive the meeting with any supplementary points raised by anyone present towards the end. My four points were: Can we improve on how we currently present MH changes? Is there a satisfactory way to incorporate player-based feedback more so than we already do? How to better use insight from the team? Lessons learnt for the future. Before I dive into these points, the first point we actually discussed was regarding "@spam". I may have said this previously somewhere but I want to go over why @spam has taken so long to appear in MH. I've put this in the spoiler tag if you're interested in this. If not, skip over it for the outcome. We realise this is super important for players with less than desirable ping. Therefore we will be enabling this for MH in the next patch. Can we improve on how we currently present MH changes? My first point was the big one and I included it so that we could actively discuss what seemed to be the biggest request from everyone in this thread, which was pre-announcing changes. For this we actually constructed a pros and cons list to better understand the ramifications of pre-announcing patch notes with an accompanying dev blog. This was resoundly declared a bad idea for myriad reasons. However, we did discuss other options and landed upon a good compromise for everyone's desire to know changes ahead of time whilst allaying our fears as developers. I will just quote exactly what was unanimously voted for so you can see for yourselves: "Every patch will have a subsection for MH patch notes that are to be expected for the next maintenance. These notes will point to particular skills/items/roles and will provide a direction [increase/decrease] of the change, and offer as much detail as we can. Remember, these are changes that are being worked on, so all the details might not be available at the moment of the first announcement. These will be accompanied by a short, but explanatory, developer note similar to what we have done before." Therefore we will be pre-announcing any MH-related changes ahead of time in the maintenance previous to the maintenance these changes will be affected. The idea behind this is not necessarily to gauge public opinion but instead to inform you all ahead of time. One our of concerns was that pre-announcing changes is going to negatively effect the market ahead of time which is going to be mitigated by the fact we won't be given in depth patch notes. We are advising everyone not to over-react and to instantly sell your gear in the expectation of your class/items/skills being "nuked from orbit". With that being said, more members of the team will be taking an active role in MH development. This allows us the opportunity to approach balance changes in a different light. We will be attempting to make smaller, incremental changes (whether upwards or downwards) in future patches. Together with our data collection and analysis, this means we can achieve a more granular view than we were able to in the past. Is there a satisfactory way to incorporate player-based feedback more so than we already do? My second point examined player feedback. We have decided to open a new channel to suggest ideas to the team. Aimer has gracefully volunteered to moderate a new suggestions channel within the Hunter's Guild Discord channel dedicated to more "free-form" suggestions. Suggestions made in this way, however, are not guaranteed to be read or responded to; instead, please make suggestions on the forums if you want a guaranteed reply. Keeping that in mind, we still recommend players to use the traditional method and post suggestions on our forums. I'm going to remind everyone now that at least one person will have actively read your MH suggestion thread here on the forums. It may not receive a reply instantly, or even quickly, but it will have been read nonetheless. We will not be pursuing the idea of commissioners or "veto power". I'd also like to take this time to re-iterate what Nova posted previously: if you feel strongly about helping us to make MH content better overall, or want to take a more active role in MH development, apply to become part of the team. You do not have to be a GM. You do not have to host events or answer support tickets or anything like that. If you want to be an "MH developer", apply to be one and we will consider your application. How to better use insight from the team? Next up we discussed the position of MH content within the team. MH content has had a pendulum-like swing between who has been involved with development. At one end is the whole development team and at the other the "core" MH team (myself and Hector). The pendulum swings depending on what is required, what needs coded and so forth. More recently the pendulum has swung mostly towards the "core" team for two reasons: due to the poisoned chalice MH had become in the public sphere; and because at the conceptualisation phase (a la MH3) a smaller team is a streamlined team. These points led to MH development occuring almost behind locked doors (but not quite; if anyone wanted to get involved we were happy to allow them... but see point 1). This shift happened gradually and so was hard to see happening; however, we've taken stock of where we are and are opening up the wider team to MH development. We aren't forcing anyone in the team to be involved if they don't want to but we are taking a more pro-active role in asking others to get involved. We are also going to be more openly discussing our development plans with the wider staff as well so that they may jump in at any point with their opinions. Furthermore, our MH-only staff meetings, which were mostly just attended by myself and Hector (until recently) will be available for anyone to join. This should increase our intra-staff communication and increase the pool of opinions from which to draw from. Miscellaneous I'm going to wrap up now with some miscellaneous points. Now with a larger team to help with MH, we will be able to undertake some tasks that couldn't before due to the manpower cost. In the near-future, this means the potential to revert more of the custom changes in preparation of MH3. In the mid- to long-future we will seek to reach an "equilibrium" with our balance changes. This means pairing positive changes with negative changes. For example, if "First Aid" was considered an overwhelmingly OP skill within MH, we would nerf that and seek to potentially buff "Play Dead" to make up for this. (I didn't want to use real skills in case someone took me out of context). I also want to mention MH3. Again. I've said MH3 is going to solve most of our balancing issues and I wish to re-iterate that we still think this is the case. We've been keeping the new systems in MH3 under-wraps as some are still being conceptualised, but in the meeting yesterday, I explained this "miracle" system. There was broad, albeit tentative, agreement that MH3 will go a long way to addressing a lot of people's concerns with the long-term health of balance within MH. We're not ready to talk about this with you guys yet but rest assured we will at the easiest point we can. By the by, we will be doing a series of in depth dev blogs before MH3 release, similar to what we did with MH2, which is where we will probably discuss this more. I've saved the best for last, shadow gear! Hector and I, along with some other members of the executive branch of the staff, discussed a couple of weeks ago how the waiting period between mobs being released was much longer than we had originally anticipated. To this end, it was probably prudent to release some of the shadow gear earlier than we had planned. I can say, as I hinted at in my last post, that we will be releasing some new shadow gear at the end of the series of role patches. We are still looking at which pieces will be released. Please keep your eyes peeled for this and know that it is coming soon. And that's everything. This will likely be my last post in this thread ("more good news!") as I need to concentrate on the upcoming healer role patch. Hopefully this addresses most of the more important points people had. We hope this thread, this post, and these changes, help to go a little way in repairing the trust lost over the recent MH changes. Rest assured, we are still listening and value your opinions. I ask you to seriously consider sending us an application to join the MH development team. If this isn't for you, continue posting your suggestions and ideas because they are useful to us.
  10. This was meant to be a to-and-fro between us and the players regarding the latest change in MH and how we make these decisions. We also planned to give insight into exactly how we made these choices by presenting graphs and data. As these decisions are constantly being made, due to MH being under constant development, there is was always going to be "words and no action" as there are no decisions to action. This whole thread was made so we could describe our decision making process and hear peoples opinions on this. Our take from this, as developers, was always going to be lessons learnt and how better to approach situations in the future. Everyone in this thread has been loud and clear in their opinions and, despite my tone sounding dismissive at times, I've certainly taken onboard the criticisms and scrutiny levelled at our design process. This is the concrete resolution to have come from this thread. The timetable for shadow gear release has been set out since before MH2 was released. This was designed around the idea there would be groups of two monsters released at a time for a total of six monsters. Initially it was thought that we would be able to release monsters much quicker than we are, but myriad problems prevented that. Together with the decision to release Hrungnir and Sybaris together in a bigger patch than intended (MH3) this has slowed our release of shadow gear further. We are very cognisant of that fact. The team have been discussing how best to approach this situation before we wrap up on MH2 development, and I'm very surprised that you have either not heard this or forgotten it, as we have settled on a decision regarding this. However, the final details require working out, which is why we have not said anything yet. I will handle your next point in sections. No one in the team has admitted that the CI nerf was handled well - hence this thread. I have been contrite on this point and empathise with everyone who feel aggrieved by this change. At the end of the day, we had justification for doing what we did (the how is certainly up for debate, which we are doing now) which hopefully people see with my explanation at the start of this thread. Pre-announcing changes certainly seems to be the panacea of our predicament; however, the ramifications of doing such needs an in-depth discussion by us as a team. The question is clearly begged, given our current situation, "how would pre-announcing the CI nerf have changed things?". This is a good start for an internal discussion within the staff, but certainly does not bear to be aired in public. I personally have concerns regarding inherently unpopular changes that would be received very negatively but which are positive for the health of the balance of MH. Given we had announced this nerf before hand and received as visceral a reaction as we have, how would we have moved forward from that? Either we forge ahead, ignoring player opinion, or we acquiesce and kick the can further down the road potentially aggravating the problem by highlighting it. This is only one of my concerns. Meanwhile we are always happy to hear player feedback on the changes we make, so long as they provide proper scrutiny or criticism of the change. We will never take heed of personal attacks or insults at us or team members. For instance, my stance on smaller, incremental changes has somewhat changed and the idea certainly has merit. I came to this conclusion directly thanks to this thread and the points people have raised. You open your post with "this is my opinion as a player with GM knowledge" and yet support the idea of vetoes. No one in the staff team holds veto power over any concept, addition or change within MH. Veto power is a stupid idea that absolutely tramples on debate and allows for a person to simply shut down discussion before it has even begun. This is entirely the wrong way to work in a team and I will vehemently argue against this. There is a very nebulous and multi-faceted debate to be had from this paragraph alone as it touches upon how these decisions are reached within the team. Therefore this is not something I am going to get into as this by itself would merit an almost dissertation-length write up to address completely. I have touched upon this lightly elsewhere in the thread but I can summarise my opinion simply by saying I do not think anyone outside of the staff should have input at the design or conceptualisation of our original PvE content. As was said at the start of your post, there have been few resolutions to come from this: I will set up a team meeting where we can discuss this further in depth. The system that is already implemented in the test server for MH3 resolves these issues in future iterations of the content. We have acknowledged time and again some nerfs were handled very poorly and a long-term solution was required. You yourself can review this system in the MH3 branch. From my end, the feedback has been very clear: this nerf was poorly handled. We have to understand, or remind ourselves, as a team that players invest in this game and this drives their intentions. No matter how justified a nerf is from a content or balance point of view, it is not always going to be well received by those on the other end of the screen. Therefore a certain amount of empathy should guide us if we come to making these changes in the future. This could be achieved by: Releasing the information early as many people have suggested; Spending more time investigating root causes of issues which is not always possible but should be something we strife for; Posting dev blogs alongside the patch with clear and logical reasoning behind our rationale; Approaching the problem from a different angle (buffing other classes up, etc.); Or by smaller, more frequent, incremental changes that ease the change and allow for smoother adjustment. These are all points directly and indirectly raised in this thread alone and have made an impact in my thinking (I won't speak for other members but I know some feel the same way). Furthermore, as one concrete resolution which we can follow up on, we will have a meeting to discuss how best to incorporate player feedback into our design loop and we can then report this back to players. Overall these seem to me, at least, like decent steps forward and addressing everyone's concerns. EDIT: Took me a minute but RE "'@spam" (which we refer to as the skill queue system): I'm more than happy to raise this issue in the staff. A decision was reached a long time ago on this but I think it bears internal review. We will discuss this and include a section on a dev blog about it.
  11. It's a shame to me that some people are still taking an almost vitriolic stand when I've come to present the team's position on our changes. I've admitted we're not perfect (shock horror) and are very willing to learn from this but a minority are still hell bent on crucifying us or certain members of the team. What that said, I will not be replying individually to posts because: 1) there are too many since my last post, so I will concatenate the most pertinent points to save time; 2) the tone of some posts makes it very clear it wouldn't matter what I said anyway. Investment into gear This point has come up again as it is obviously the key point for every player who does not want to see their time and effort scrapped overnight. Sadly this is also the point which is hardest to engage in a meaningful discussion about (as seen by some replies here) due to the visceral reaction of some people. I don't want to get caught up in this debate as it will just be circuitous and no one wins. I will say that in my last post I asked for how we could have done the change differently and, whilst some people responded calmly with some good points, others chose to berate "why are you asking us?". I will not point out the obvious irony here. With that said, at the end of the day, the price of a build is not something we are going to really consider when it comes to our balancing. Just as it is so with new updates from kRO, so too will it be with us. I will concede the point that the nerf was sudden and could have been conducted differently, and this is something we as a team have taken onboard and will consider in our future updates. Change was too drastic A lesson we have learnt over our years of development is that small, gradual changes rarely work, and it is better, especially so in the case of nerfs, to rip the plaster off as quick as possible. There are positives and negatives to both positions and we are discussing internally if we should adopt a more cautious approach to nerfs whereby we implement a small nerf and "watch-and-see". If we were to take this approach we would probably provide a note in the patch notes that further changes may follow contingent on further review of the situation. Meta classes I have already discussed the concept of "the meta" in the main post. The idea of which classes can and cannot be taken into MH content are, at the end of the day, driven by players. We are the guides of the meta whereas the players are the constructors of the meta. Hopefully the graphs I presented show you that certain classes aren't really all that bad as they seem. However, I have heard a lot of comments about "off-meta" classes that need further help from us to make them appealing. This is something we will look to address, either in the role patches or come MH3. Testers, commissioners and feedback Firstly, we do have a team of testers for content but as these people are volunteers we are very hesitant to call them up. Therefore we only use the testers for "big" content that we ourselves cannot test - to date this has been the mobs and their mechanics (and even then there were still bugs; no hating on them, the mobs were just very complex pieces of script). Commissioners for MH is not something I am personally fond of; unlike PvP-related content, which I think is much better suited for commissioners, PvE content is much more in the hands of the developers and how they want the game to be played. We have myriad end-game players in the end team who provide great insight on all our changes, however. Someone even suggested they be granted veto power which is - and I'm sorry for this - the worst idea I've heard of so far. No one in the team - regardless of position and, yes, that means even Nova - has veto power on any of our content or changes; each position must be presented and argued and the rest of the team must be brought around to their way of thinking before a decision is reached. Related to the commissioners is the idea of how we receive feedback. I would rather take feedback from the wide variety of MH players (the graphs show there is a huge disparity between low-end and high-end players) via the suggestions forum. Myself and Hector, the core MH team, sift through these suggestions frequently (every. single. one!) and bring the best to the table for the wider team discussions on MH. We are very open to ideas and people's thoughts so please post them there than just stewing under the (incorrect) premise of "we don't care". Skill gap The skill gap between low- and high-end players has been brought up consistently, mostly with in the context of the CI nerf, but generally as well. This is something we are very cognisant of and wish to keep an eye on. Whilst MH is meant to be hard, end-game content, we also want it to be fair and balanced. I said previously that we will be closely watching how the skill gaps move and we are in active discussions within the team as to how we can raise the skill floor of classes whilst not increasing the skill ceiling at the same time. We are also aware our changes may lower the skill ceiling and the skill floor, however we are waiting for new data before we make any solid conclusions on that point. Buff the mob Buffing the mob is our last resort, the reasoning for which is closely tied to the above paragraph - this is likely to affect low-end players more than high-end players. Like I said, we're waiting for the data to show us how the skill gap has moved, but I suspect lower-end GXs may have just moved builds and are dealing similar damage to what they were previously (this is my own opinion and conjecture, which is very likely to be wrong). We generally dislike the "green aura" idea. Making a mob take 90%, 50%, 10% of damage is just faux difficulty and does nothing except to prolong the fight. That is why we spend so much time at the conceptualisation and design phase of the mobs. It is there where we look at each mechanic and construct difficulty in that way. Finally some miscellaneous points. Someone early on - whose post I missed - stated I just wanted to say we didn't hunker down and wait for the storm to pass. Our development cycle means that changes will sit in our git until the next maintenance when the server is updated with what we've been doing - this can mean changes were actually made weeks ago compared to when you guys see them. After players asked us to clarify our position on this change, we had to go back and re-analyse the data and discuss which points to present to clearly show our intention. There is also a global pandemic going on that means our reaction times may be slower than usual too. These two reasons are why it took us a while to get around to this dev blog. I want to re-iterate that MH3 is likely to solve a lot of these issues and upend the way we balance the content going forward. I know, I know, I keep talking about this "mystical" update that's still far away and that's frustrating. The role-based patches are going to be quick-fire patches so that we can move full speed ahead on MH3 development. We ourselves are super anxious to get MH3 out the door as it will solve a lot of problems we've had as well. I suspect the MH3 development time will be much shorted than that of MH2. These posts are draining to write but they do serve a good purpose in updating you guys - so it's something I'll strive to do more often (as so far I've taken the role of the silent partner in MH development). This will likely be my last post in this thread as I need to get ready for maintenance, but feel free to keep the discussion going and, if there are some good points raised (in a good manner!), I may pop in again to reply.
  12. I just want to say one thing now in case other people ask too: This is exactly the same as how aggro is generated currently. We have not changed, in any way, the underlying mechanics of aggro generation. We have only tweaked the modifiers mentioned in the post. This is exactly why we are writing these posts and adding tutorial NPC dialogue. There is a lot of misconceptions on how certain mechanics work in MH and we want to provide clarity on how they work.
  13. So there has been a few arguments that have been reiterated by different people that I'll make blanket statements for rather than replying individually. "My monetary investment in the game is now useless." Firstly I wouldn't say it's now useless, you still have the items in question. But still, you bought those items with the intention of using them with a specific build. At the end of the day, those items can still be used for that build, it's now just less effective than it was. Ultimately, this is the hardest point for us to contest because it puts us as developers into an uneasy position. I think it's fair for me to say that no one wants us to start taking an active role in meddling with the free market on NovaRO. So we can't exactly start implementing caps for buying/selling items to protect those potentially affected items. Instead we could take into consideration the amount of money people have spent on their builds (it is possible for us to create a picture, using the data, of which builds players are using with character information combined with the skills they are using). But then we are starting to balance the game around the few, around the 1%, who are lucky enough to be able to sink large amounts of Zeny into their builds. I think this is a terrible idea and turns the server into pay to win. So my question to those who have raised this point is: how do we best approach this situation? Rather than complaining your investment is "useless", help us to come up with solutions that can mitigate this situation in the future. We're will to listen and learn but at the end of the day, this is an MMO and changes and updates are going to happen that impact your investments (positively or negatively). "Why don't you buff other classes to GX rather than nerf GX to everyone else." Great point and one that we as a team are taking with us into MH3 development. However, regarding GX (and some of the other classes that have been changed): their DPS potential is just so overwhelming it limits us from a design perspective. Having a class that can reach upwards of even 20 or 25 million DPS is causing inflation elsewhere in the mechanics in MH that edges out lower-end players (even those in the top 75% of players still find certain mechanics tricky due to the fact we have to take into consideration how much DPS the top can output). Which leads me into my next question... "It looks like you're balancing around outliers and this is bad." Based any sort of conclusion around outliers, unless it about those outliers in question, is a terrible idea (I should know!). But this is not what we are doing here - we're looking at the potential output from classes combined with other quantitative (number of people at the far end of the distribution curve, interquartile ranges, etc.) and qualitative findings (ease to gear, ease to play, skill floor, etc.). We combine all this information to inform on a decision and not just based on outliers. I have a tonne of graphs plotted for so many different things, obviously I won't show the majority of these to the public, but they all help to build a wider context of the health of the balance state of the game in MH. "You do not have enough of a sample size to base these findings off - there are only four Oboro in your graph." Bear in mind this is the top 50% of DPS generated by damage roles only. We have a wider context of how these classes fit into MH and their average DPS based on the full dataset we have access to. Speed running vs completion. Some people would like to know what we balance around, for example, someone asked if we have a completion time in mind which we aim to keep under. The answer is no, not really. I have a personal idea that I would like every mechanic to activate at least once during a fight, so however long that is, but that's not at all our official opinion and doesn't affect balancing. Overall these fights are meant to be hard. And if you were to play them as the average player does, they generally are. So I think this is where the disconnect between us are the players are, whereby players are measuring their success according to the speed of completion, whereas we are creating the content around success being clearing the run at all. The issue with speed is that is completely trivialises the fight and that is what we take issue with. I think that covers most of the points until now. Do draw my attention to specific points if you think I haven't covered them above. EDIT: One more! "Rune Knights are just as bad as GX!" We're looking at the same graphs as you are people! We can see what the graphs are showing you too! These choices are not mutually exclusive - we don't look and say, "well, we need to make our one change and its between RK and GX, someone flip the coin!".
  14. Firstly, thanks for the post which is levelled and well thought out. In response to your first point - we would love to be able to achieve fine-tuned changes like you've mentioned. We dream of working with an MMO such as Final Fantasy XIV which has a (by comparison) very narrow DPS ranges. Truth be told, for a team this size, we don't have the ability to "nerf DPS output of GX by 13%" (for example). We could nerf the % modifier by that amount but RO's damage formulae are just a mess and what you think might be a 13% reduction in damage ends up being wildly different. To that end, and in response to your second point, we are a small team with no real QA capacity outside of the team itself. What numerical changes we see in our testing will not accurately reflect what changes players will see themselves, hence our reliance on the data we collect showcased today. You mention the difference between client types resulting in differing DPS amounts which is a fair point (and something we hope does not bias the data due to balancing, but could provide an interesting data point for the future). But the numbers you suggest I take contention with at this stage as we simply don't know. From preliminary data we've collected, there just aren't enough GX runs yet to make an informed estimate on how much DPS has decreased due to the nerf. What I'm concerned about, which you've touched upon, and I've mentioned to the team is that there will be some sort of confounding effect in the immediate aftermath of the nerf due to players not playing MH or playing different classes, or trying different builds, or for other reasons. This is why, despite being very interested in seeing how our change affects GX DPS overall, I'm holding out judgment until I can see the data myself. I suspect waiting a couple of weeks will show a clearer picture (after a few weekly resets). This lines up nicely with our patch schedule and still allows us time to further tweak GX - I have to stress though, only if it is necessary - within our MH2 development cycle and before we switch fully to MH3. Finally, we realise how GX has received a lot of balance changes comparatively. I've said it before and, to risk sounding like a broken record, we are putting these changes all under review come MH3. I know it is probably frustrating to hear that change is slowly coming but I personally think the systems we have planned are probably the best option available given RO's limited scope. I may have missed some of your points in your post so please feel free to reply if you'd like a more direct or detailed answer to any of your more pertinent questions.
  15. Great point in the first paragraph - it's not really something we can capture with the data. We count the amount of deaths per person in the run but this doesn't really show us much. For example, you're going to be much more conservative in your DPS if it's possible for the mob to one-shot you. This is something we have to rely on player input for, as well as what we experience ourselves when we play the content. As for the second point - this is what we're actively striving to achieve. But it's difficult - very difficult - with how RO works. We're hoping the systems we have planned for MH3 will help us to this end so sadly we all have to be a bit patient about it. Still though, we're more than happy to hear suggestions in the meantime to help bring up the classes that suffer more due to inherent unbalance.
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