Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Conga

Why is PvP so hard to get in to?

Recommended Posts

Before reading i'll quickly say this isn't a "I want to get in to woe thread" as it no longer interests me, rather it's a thread about how I tried to get in to it but was pushed away.

I'm not a WoE/bg/pvp expert either as you could probably very easily guess the previous statement.

 


Personally, i've wanted to get in to WoE for a while as it looked really appealing to me, it looked fun with it's high speed combat and complexity requiring fast thinking.

However after trying it I realised two of my largest issues with it, it's extremely confusing to new players and some new players are so undergeared they literally can't win a 1:1 fight simply due to a statistical disadvantage; without the other person just throwing it that is.

A lot of PvP centered games don't do the two things I mentioned previous; and those which do typically just, die. Fast.

Imagine you're a new player to some Multiplayer PvP FPS or whatever, you have no idea what anything is; where to learn how to play the game and have no idea what the meta is.
A good pvp game, if it's complex, would limit the player's options not to an unfair disadvantage but to an amount where they're free to learn with the very few tools they're given and can learn the rest of the game at their own pace; slowly and gently giving helpful advice along the way.
Take TF2 for example, you start with your 3 basic stock weapons; learn how those work, what they do and how to use them, then you begin getting unlockable weapons after that, the player's given everything they need to get kills and be just as good as a seasoned tryhard if they had the skill but they aren't overwhelmed by being offered every single weapon at once.

Again, every player even when they just start a new account can be just as good as a veteran if they had the skill.

Nobody is at a statistical disadvantage.
Nobody is at a statistical advantage.

All you need to do to understand the very basics of the game is how to move around and shoot.

 

I understand WoE is not a full game and I genuinely don't know how this would be effectively ported over, however dying knowing somebody is literally just statistical stronger than you due to having some super expensive really rare items or stuff that they could've even paid for is not a pleasant experience in the slightest, it makes the death feel cheap and undeserved in some ways~

MVP cards feel like a massive cause of this.

I'm not proposing to put everyone on an equal playing field right away, especially since this is RO and some people have worked literally years to get their build perfect, what I am pointing out is one of the reasons I and probably many others have been driven away; dying due to an unfair fight because the other person just had a statistical advantage over me.

The other big problem is overwhelming new players, you step in to WoE and sure you're given the basic WoE kit of bare minimum items but after that it's completely unclear on where you should go since there's literally thousands of items you can choose from; the damage formula is some crazy complicated thing? I don't understand this. What do you mean that less damage reduction is good in exchange for more damage? what? This card does what now? I genuinely can't tell if hide is a good skill or not? How are these peoples doing x15 the amount of damage I am? What do you mean I can remove this list of specific effects but I can't remove these others? What does this super weird thing on the ground do? What killed me nothing was on my screen?

 

There's so, so, so many questions and almost no answers. I'm sure there'll be quite a few helpful individuals but finding them amongst the sea of the Novaro community, especially when someone might not even know that the discord, wiki, forums or etc exists; it's very difficult to find help.

Especially when 99% of my social interactions when I tried bg or woe was "WOW you're so bad" "somehow you're exceptionally useless" "go uninstall the game" "can you stop sucking?" "Stop playing bg" and so on is typically what I got; I really don't feel like playing PvP anymore when I keep on getting told this with no helpful advice, who would've thought? That's actually the single main most reason that I quit Novaro a year or two ago before coming back since I heard my old guild leader was.

 

I also talked to a *few* people those years ago before I quit and when I brought up MVP cards I typically got a response along the lines of "Oh yeah people can just grind for those"
Why would I grind for something that I don't even know if I like or not yet? Why would I invest time in to learning PvP when the entry-level of it feels so unfair and confusing?

 

Essentially, PvP feels extremely unfair to new players as they die knowing they simply have a flat disadvantage compared to their enemy and it's very confusing and overwhelming too.

 

 

 

Again i'm no PvP/BG/WoE expert and I don't have access to the server's raw logs either so there may be a bit of information partially incorrect or missing here and there but this is my experience and having talked to a few others about this before I quit years ago, some other's experience too.

 

I'm also not suggesting either that PvP suddenly gets a "everyone's on the same playing grounds" update as PvP is an insanely big help for the economy of the server and helps in keeping players around and active~

 

And to be honest I don't even know if this post is under the right forum area either as I couldn't find an easy-to-locate guide on where to post this kind of stuff~
Anyways have a nice day, goodluck and have fun BG~


MoonlightFlower.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Conga said:

Take TF2 for example, you start with your 3 basic stock weapons; learn how those work, what they do and how to use them, then you begin getting unlockable weapons after that, the player's given everything they need to get kills and be just as good as a seasoned tryhard if they had the skill but they aren't overwhelmed by being offered every single weapon at once.

Pyros with W+M1 disagreed hehehe lol...

Man... how to even start this... i understand your frustation and even then i defend the players who play WOE nowdays, the problem is with the method of getting info. You see ragnarok is almost 16 years old MMORPG, since i remember i've never see balance in pvp (old times frist classe archer killls everyone in yoyo mode, woe was a prefix precast with the same exausting wall of meet to pass and conquer the emp, transclass is a bloody mess with all kinds of programs and 3rd is gonna get even harder to rebalance), but the issue with all this is not NovaRO fault, Gravity development team make this changes no seeing when the horse get the water (KRO full of cash item that MAYBE ruin SOME players experiente in actual woe, JRO is a heaven for pvm but seems the pvp suffer with the same things nowdays, NovaRO not have yet all the equipaments for all possible counter builds and this can make life sometimes dificult). You can google for yourself or try and error multiple times in BG until you get actually what to do IF you don't get any invite in the future.

About MVP cards, i think any veterain notices thats things happen, if here in Nova is the "hell scenario" the newcomers said, i bet you guys don't stand 1 hour in oficials castles xD...

Well the first step to learn the basics of woe is now all classes and what they do in the war, you have to see one single dudes at time but you can make more easily like:

DPS - Doods that attack with physical dmgs, for this guys you have to learn how to switch from atk to def or make a hybrid build.
Magical DPS - Same as DPS but with magic things, they usually are more atk then def, but then again is something about learning the timing.
Long Ranged DPS - Nowdays is just few fellas in this category like rangers (no traps) and Dorams, they usually be glass cannon but they started to learn how to hybrid things up.
Suports and Utilitys - This doos usualy have to be in well position, in my point of view if this guys fall, the other lines usually have hard times.

Read with calm, don't rush things up just bc you don't get in the first time. Ask me if you have some questions and i'll try to help with things i know and i beg you, DON'T BE TOXIC or INTOXICATED, i've never see in any game one smartass try to be cooky and be at least relevant in something of his like, be patience, kindly, be the way you've liked to be treathed.

Thats it and stay away from pyros with W+M1 weapons ^^.


11SignaJumpSky.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is how MMORPG works. Almost every single game that have "RPG" on it always rely on gears/equipment, character levels, and stat distribution.

 

Unique thing about RO nowadays is Life and death decided in less than a second. Unlike other game where you have time to heal and no skill that broken enough to 1 shot players, RO today especially in BG is one shot festival. Glass cannon or super tanky. You are not using shield, you die. You use wrong elemental reduction, you die. You not stack enough ranged reduction, you die. You blindly walk to active AOA skills, you die.

 

Special case in woe where players almost always side to side with his guild mates, you can choose to be a turtle and let stacked skill from everyone kill your target. That is why classes with long range skill favorable in woe. By long range skills doesn't mean it must be a ranger, anything that not requiring you to stand face to face with enemies is good option including magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello~~ 

 

Indeed, you point out several essential points concerning a part of the community that is not familiar with the PvP content and i think this feelings you have there is shared by a lot of newcomers in the PvP Scene, most of the time it might feel really unfair and indeed it is in some situation. I will try to give you some points that I hope will help you to see more clearly and familiarize yourself with this content.

 

First of all, keep in mind as it was said that RO is now  a game with 16+ years of existence, lot of players that still play this game are players with several years of experience. For some of them, little things like you pointed there are so basics now that they get too haughty with some newcomers, because for them its pretty the basics of ro mechanics. Don't get too disturbed about some salty players.

 

PvP & WoE & BG are part of the most funniest & most competitive content, but those requires lot of Experience first, and lot of practice. Some players are really invested on it and have already built strong Builds & have already a lot of practice, this is where the huge gap came from. 

 

How to do that ? 

First of all, documents yourself, ro is a game with a lot of ressources where you can find informations and help, like building your gears, your swap, and even how to find a counter build or playstyle to another. 

 

My first Suggestion is for you to go check Ro Database's , Ro Wiki's , Forum's about your class etc .. if you dying to a Crimson Rocks even its a FBH users, solutions can be found like using Magic Reflection, or building Fire resistance : +9 Magic reflector shield + Frus card on a +9 Armor already give you 27% of magic reflection. Building Jakk card + Leib Olmai card + valk shield will build  + 2 Fire resist MIR/PER : 80% fire resist. 

Hiding will make you survive lot of risky situations , like hiding during an Area of effect skills fiesta. Or just to hide when someone divested your eqps the time for you to recover it.

 

Keep in mind that the PvP environment if very diversified so even you counterpart a style , there will still be other classes or build that can take you down or counter you don't expect to be invicible, but RO is a strong community based game when its related to PvP content so there will always be variety and possibilites. Let me explain myself :

 

My second Suggestion will be you must play with your teammates in order to really feel it. 

What i mean is that if there is a chaser disabling you, a Sorc in your team can dispell you to recover that masquerade, if you got crystalized a sorc can warmer you, if you stoned , an AB in your team can clemencia & lauda you etc.. so try to play it with some "friends" than alone is preferable you still can ask for buffs & stuffs when solo, but i know its not easy to always have a duo pt during BG, as for WoE its easier because of the conditions, so there you can always ask for buffs , for recovering etc.. so don't hesitate to do. Ask for the informations you need too, you'll learn a lot playing with others players, experienced or not. Don't mind when people are being a bit "rude" or salty, some other players will be kind and appreciate to help you, just don't be too intrusive haha.

 

My last Suggestion will be , just try to enjoy it, sometimes, just little things is enough to enjoy and be the most impactfull player, like taking down a WL by reflecting him is satisfying as fuck, or just disabling the right target that is always taking down your key DPS is also satisfying. Everyone has a role in those kind of hostile environment, and a little things can make everything different. You don't really have to be the most try-harder player to enjoy it, sometimes little things make you feel that you've done your job and you saved the game. an AB that is recovering a full team being stasised is the best feelings, an AB that always buffs the whole teams and only putting pneuma's when a Unlimit is going to hit, saved a lot of game too. You will always find your place in this type of PvP content everyone has a role, WoE , PvP , BG Wise.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nishii

2317image.png.dac93d4bf4624c6159912aaccce63b4c.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well this base on my experience too what made it hard to play pvp mode:

 

1. Lack of experience

- Dealing with some skill or class you need experience to be able to counter them or at least put a fight. You also need to at least master the skills your current job has.

Mostly I learn and practice things on BG but there's draft and woe too.

 

2. If you don't have reliable zeny making

- Because gearing a character is pain. At least have enough to even buy foods you need if WOEing.

You buy a bunch of stuff that can help you with your damage reduction or dps.

Try to gear a PVM character first.

 

3. DPS

You don't know much and you're new, try to learn a bit before trying to be a DPS.

 

If you still plan to do pvp mode try to play supports gene, sorc, rg, performers, and AB. If someone dissed you try to remember its name and don't buff them.

 

 

 


spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You pointed several interesting issues that many people share.

I know you already decided to leave, but I have the hope that my advicements could help you or someone else in the future. 

 

15 hours ago, Conga said:

A good pvp game, if it's complex, would limit the player's options not to an unfair disadvantage but to an amount where they're free to learn with the very few tools they're given and can learn the rest of the game at their own pace; slowly and gently giving helpful advice along the way.

 

This is not something limited just to PVP, is a characteristic of RO. If i was paid for every time i've been told "hey how do you deal 200k+ per CRIT on RK when i barely do 10~15k". In this game, the difference that Gear makes is ABYSMAL, and becomes higher and higher as KRO keeps launching new gears for Endgame players. Sadly, this is not something that can be magically changed. Gearing up is one of the main characteristics of MMORPG's.

 

A partial solution for this could be implementing weapon alternatives for newbies. +9 Vellum Weapons are hard to get and don't even get close to +14 Glorious weapons. And the staff is rehacious to implement Brute Weapons because they're JRO. So, I don't know, maybe implementing CUSTOM weapons for newbies could be something to consider?

 

Meanwhile, all you can do is keep farming until you get equipment good enough to be useful on PVP.... Is just a matter of patience and time...  /no1

 

 

15 hours ago, Conga said:

The other big problem is overwhelming new players, you step in to WoE and sure you're given the basic WoE kit of bare minimum items but after that it's completely unclear on where you should go since there's literally thousands of items you can choose from; the damage formula is some crazy complicated thing? I don't understand this. What do you mean that less damage reduction is good in exchange for more damage? what? This card does what now? I genuinely can't tell if hide is a good skill or not? How are these peoples doing x15 the amount of damage I am? What do you mean I can remove this list of specific effects but I can't remove these others? What does this super weird thing on the ground do? What killed me nothing was on my screen?

 

There's so, so, so many questions and almost no answers.

Yeah RO is a 16 years Game, and as you said there are literally THOUSANDS of items....

The only thing you can do in this case is ask for advicement. Because we (old players) are encyclopedias of "useless-for-real-life" information. So old players are the best source of information.

 

That's what Class Channels are for. So i would advice any newbie to go Novacord (Nova's Official Discord)  and ask for advicement in their respective Class Channel. That's the best way to get relevant info. /no1

 

 

15 hours ago, Conga said:

it's very difficult to find help.

Especially when 99% of my social interactions when I tried bg or woe was "WOW you're so bad" "somehow you're exceptionally useless" "go uninstall the game" "can you stop sucking?" "Stop playing bg"

As in all communities in Interent, there's always both helpful people and asswholes. Sadly, bad attitudes against newbies are so normalized in Nova's PVP community (calling them "PVMers, clowns", etc), that I don't thing this is gonna change soon.... So If you wanna get into Nova's PVP enviroment, all you can do is either:

1.- Avoid all possible interaction and just play. Or:

2.- Find the helpful people and stay close to them.

 

I hope those advicements are helpful for you somehow.  /no1

Wish you good luck, @Conga I honestly hope you're having fun, whatever you're playing now.  /bo

 

 

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, XyZExceed said:

Unlike other game where you have time to heal and no skill that broken enough to 1 shot players, RO today especially in BG is one shot festival.

 

Hi. I just wanted to point out that's not the case in KRO. They have exactly the opposite problem, they lack of damage to kill people.

 

Some players here criticize KRO for "not knowing how to balance PVP". But  It seems that not many people know how things really works on KRO. I mean, KRO has been having an active WOE since 2003. 16 years straight of active WOE.  So  saying that "they don't know how to balance PVP" sounds extremely cocky for players of a 5 year server.

image.png.7858986ff7efe8df6796f9a8245d41e9.png

 

You just have to Google a couple videos to realize that KRO's WOE is balanced, and is very hard to kill people there. There are literally HUNDREDS of videos about KRO's WOE that you can analyze.

 

Why is that? Because in KRO people can reach up to 97% demi-human resist with Rental Gear: https://ratemyserver.net/index.php?page=item_db&comid=156 . And Freyja's set is extremely old, I don't even know if there are even better defensive gears right now.... Not even need to use the full Frejya set, using only the Garment, the Armor and the Mid-lows already gives you 63% DH resist, the rest can be full offensive Gears (including bio 5 hat) and you still Tanky... That's insane...  So VERY FEW classes can kill in KRO. And If it was not for Stripping and Diamond Dust spamming (cause yes, they have gear to spam DD much faster), people wouldn't even be able to kill other people.

 

For example this video is from March 2019, when they already  had 17.1 EQUIPMENT, EDDA GLAST HEIM and BIOLAB EDDA, and you can see that even with all those Crazy Offensive Gears, NOBODY is one shoting NOBODY:

 

 

 

 

So no @XyZExceed, One-shot fiesta is not a charascteristic of RO, is a characteristic of NovaRO. In KRO is totally different.

 

Just different Meta-games. 

Edited by Fu Windschwert

 Compilation of the Stories and Legends of all the MVP <---- Click Here 

13  112 

 


 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first and last advise will be:
Don't listen to a known people that have no idea how kRO works and can't even check the video's they are posting. You can end up having wrong expectations of WoE/BG or classes balance. Always use your own mind and try to analyze any possible info.

 

Players before said enough to start with.


104

aboutme.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, i just want to share my bad experience with pvp too

 

I'm not an expert, never before tried bg, just started because of the weeklies

 

First 2 weeks i was totally useless and people called me "noob",  "useless", "stop playing bg" just as it happened to you @Conga I improved my equipment and after a few weeks started to do some useful stuff like stripping people with earth strain or freezing them with jack frost

 

But then came the WL nerf. Jack frost and Earth strain became useless, now all that a WL can do is reading, tetra, reading, tetra, reading, tetra. If you can't one shot with tetra you're useless. They took away all the versatility of this beautiful job and turned it into an unidimensional job that can only do 1 thing

 

 

Not only that, the nerf did not affected Suras at all. Since i play bg i realized suras are the most broken class  there is, they have meelee stuff, ranged stuff and disabling stuff, and most important almost nobody can do anything agaist their speed. They come, one shot you and leave in less than a second. Why is that? Why they only nerfed WL but no the most OP class of all?

 

Anyway, i'm not a pvp expert but i had a few ideas that maybe could have helped to balance WLs without killing their versatility and i wanted to share them. I was redirected by @Panic to commisioners , but when i tried to find them, none of their characters were online, i just lost my time. Then i remembered i met a guy in BG that said that he plays woe, so i shared my ideas with him, and i was told a simple "don't be retarded, WL are op now" wha? Really? How can they be fine? I was literally unable to do anything on wl just go there and die, but they're "OP".... meh... so i simply quited playing BG and here i am... better to grind in Bio5 as performer for 3 hours and keep away from toxicity....

 

All i can say is the commisioners system don't work. I don't know what they seek but definitivelly is not balance, they just benefit their favorite jobs and screw the others. And i heard is conformed only by woe players so is not even representative of the population of the server.

 

Sorry but as long as the system don't change i don't thing NovaRO is a good place to start playing pvp or BG :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arwen Leticia said:

But then came the WL nerf.

It wasn't a nerf. It was a change. 

WLs damage got boosted, but they lost utility on their skills. Overall they become stronger than before.

1 hour ago, Arwen Leticia said:

Not only that, the nerf did not affected Suras at all. Since i play bg i realized suras are the most broken class  there is, they have meelee stuff, ranged stuff and disabling stuff, and most important almost nobody can do anything agaist their speed. They come, one shot you and leave in less than a second. Why is that? Why they only nerfed WL but no the most OP class of all?

Because sura already nerfed comparing to the their official state. Not to mention that they don't get any buff on damage side in this update at all. Sura op only when you don't how to play against them im BG, which is a matter of experience. And well, sura's like natural WL's enemy, so..

1 hour ago, Arwen Leticia said:

but when i tried to find them, none of their characters were online, i just lost my time.

Because not all players are "one character only", and not all of them playing on your timezone. I'd suggest you to find commissioners in NovaRO Draft WoE discord and contact them there. (Just asked to list them somewhere for easier contacting for you and those who also want to share their opinion).

1 hour ago, Arwen Leticia said:

a simple "don't be retarded, WL are op now" wha? Really? How can they be fine? I was literally unable to do anything on wl just go there and die, but they're "OP"

Because they are. Just because some players can't do anything on class because of lack of gear/experience/gear and experience doesn't mean class bad. And when we carefully look at the general picture of what is happenin on BG/WoE, it's easy and obvious that currently WL is a top-tier DPS. Yes, support WL is dead, but commissioners are not the one who you should blame for that. You simply can't have old and new behavior in the same time because client restrictions.

1 hour ago, Arwen Leticia said:

All i can say is the commisioners system don't work. I don't know what they seek but definitivelly is not balance, they just benefit their favorite jobs and screw the others. And i heard is conformed only by woe players so is not even representative of the population of the server.

Just because you didn't succeed in contacting with commissioners doesn't mean system doesn't work. Each guild has 2 commissioners that speak for them, so we can easily say that commissioners represente at least (5x24=108) 108 players, which is really big and can actually be called a "biggest part of PvP community on Nova". 24x24 on BG is a really rare thing outside of weekly reset day. And well, WoE players mostly are BG players too, so.

 

Not to mention that there's only one sura player (not even main) in commissioners, and 2 of them are WL mains.

 

UPD. So yeah, if you want, you can still contact with commissioners by Draft Woe discord. Can't guarantee that commissioners will agree with you (they most likely won't, yeah), but it's worth to try anyway.

Edited by Mandie

104

aboutme.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Fu Windschwert said:

Hi. I just wanted to point out that's not the case in KRO. They have exactly the opposite problem, they lack of damage to kill people.

I don't have access to kRO stuff so idk what is going on there except major update that has been widespread, but this is interesting fact that I learned today.

They have superior offensive gears yet they lack of damage. With possibility to get 97% demi reduc its understandable... LOL its broken in another form.

no wonder they keep improving dps classes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...