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Luxuri

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Posted (edited)

What I would say about the CI fiasco was already well said by the entire community, now into another problem...
 

 

MH EXCLUSIVE BUILDS;

 

 

As you, the developers, may know MH has alterations and systems that make some builds that work pretty well outside MH that are totally useless inside MH unless players "adapt" their build costing them billions;

 

Examples are:

 

Soul Destroyer Guillotine Cross: Unable to crit, players wanting to run their favorite build needs to spend another billions to adapt from a ACD-crit-ranged-atk-crit rate balanced build with katars or DDs to a totally different one focused on Ranged dmg-ACD-ATK and a set of edda daggers with memory only just to be able to do significant damage.

 

Storm Blast/Crit AA Rune Knight: Cursed by the high crit shield of the bosses they need to reach even higher crit rates while maintaining their damage and gears that makes the build actually viable (from 220~230 range crit to 270~280 crit range) and it gets even worse when the nysori crystals are soft critical immune (~300 crit shield/1500LUK) making them yet spend another billions to have a full ATK%-SizeDMG-STR focused build just to do a mechanic properly since the boss doesn't stand still while doing the crystal phase.

 

Sharpshooting Ranger: Suffering the same fate as their RK and GX brothers on the crit rate problem they need to up their critical rate sacrificing their damage (that isn't that high already compared to the Aimed Bolt meta because of the innate 40% crit dmg nerf) needing from 95~105 crit range to 145~150 crit range and for crystals, well the same as RK but with ranged damage needing another set.

 

Cross Impact Guillotine Cross: Not actually related to the latest nerf because this was already a problem but with easier time dealing with it being the only class to access X2 CRIT rate with katars, however, DD builds were completely demolished by the absurd high crit shield needing at least billions of crit gears, cards, enchants to deal with the 70~80 crit shield of the bosses from the common 1~32 from the overall RO content and on top of that, because of the late customization that is now gone, needing 72% ACD. So they needed to do a lot of stuff to maintain everything balanced and in the end do their desired damage and of course, as you may know, nysori crystals makes this build worth nothing because being unable to crit and needing to hit 2 targets at the same time for a single target skill (that is now non-spammable) will just take too much time and the boss will just eat your teammates alive, and after all the trouble that is getting the crit build working with the bosses, you need yet another set of build focused on melee-size dmg-atk% to deal with those crystals.

 

And finally... those special builds are not even safe since they can be nerfed/cut in half in one single day making all your effort gone in a single line in a patch note...

 

And you can say What about CL WL, you don't see them using CL outside MH, well at least I don't see them needing to build the CL build completely different from how they would build it for outside MH and I would say the same to Aimed Bolt Ranger or Wind Cutter RK since the requirements for the build to function is the same in or out MH scenario (With the exception of WC RK with the Black Ribbon hat however after the powerful nives fix I need to further test that) or even sometimes easier since battle trance already gives them 30% acd making the ACD necessary for their builds to work at max spam actually lower than outside and the case with crit is that you  need higher crit rate than outside

 

You may claim that you can still use them outside... with all due respect but... what monster in the official content needs 170 crit rate? not even the HARD malangdo culvert boss, Coelacanth, the boss with the highest crit shield rate known to date (260 LUK meaning 52 crit shield) has those and the boss is old with only 5M HP  and an outdated enchant system from long ago that was only really worth it to min-maxing a few weapons that are now outdated as well and never a boss with similar crit shield appeared ever again... And on MH you have a ~2B HP boss with a lot of mechanics, high damage output having those absurd numbers of crit shield and it is the only way to get shadow gear (We'll discuss about those later by the way) and BSBs through weeklies and those items are core for RO builds now.

 

Where in the official content/behavior SBK doesn't crit or has a need for ranged only gears? 

 

Where you need 72% ACD to use CI on it's maximum spam since it's 0,7 CD officially? (Even after the patch that removed the 0 CD people already invested a lot for crit rate dmg and ACD necessary for it to work).

 

Where you need non-crit Cross Impact/Sharp Shooting/Storm Blast? (Even though you can say it's a different playstyle this doesn't cut it since people who did the crit version were forced to use the non-crit to deal with a mechanic of a boss and that crit skills have lower ATK% modifiers since they CAN crit)

 

Even if you say "We know all of those issues and we are dealing with it" you said that already many times and yet here we are... I just want to make it written and registered so I can hopefully help you guys see what exactly where are some issues with MH balancing with this post and help you avoid doing this unhealthy scenario that is needing 2~3 entire different builds for a single skill to work.

 

 

 

Now... another well known issue:

 

Until now the MH rewards are just "laughable", the Shadow gears coming in incomplete sets... Most of the Shadow gear being almost worthless (Examples are people only run MH for two sets that are class sets and the infamous Reload Shadow set) and there is yet another one that is only sought after because of a customization to make them worthwhile, that is Penetration Shadow Set to work with MH bosses (Since they lack their official other part of the set to pierce race defense), This customization make the farm of other shadow gear easier, However, there are tons of great shadow set that people are waiting for it since the MH2 reveal  (In my personal case Infinity Shadow Gear and Critical Hit Shadow Armor) so to this day of 2* hunts the only rewards worth the challenge are: Reload/Class/Penetration shadow set and BSBs from an already extensive list of shadow gear available in the wyvern...that's pretty underwhelming considering the vast list of shadow gear available on kRO.

 

Not to mention the costume stone enchants (Making a lot of "dead builds" actually being strong enough to compete with other builds, for the example: Axe tornado Mechanic AA GX...) and Shadow gear enchanting making build paths easier and opening room for more creativity on making your own more personal one.

 

Items that are long outmatched by the official content that is easier to farm (Temporal Armors/most of the Ancient Hero items since they are usually used for Leveling), making them only obtainable by a super high-end game content is just questionable at best, even though they are tradable, there are easier official solutions already.

 

 

 

I know it's a small team, I'm not making requirements or quotas, but the issues exists despite of it; And them being known is better than let them be left alone and turn it into a big uncontrollable snowball before you know it.

 

 

Of course I don't know all of the issues, but that's why this dev blog exists for you, the developers, gather all the information you can get and Improve.

 

Best of luck for the MH team and Nova Staff.

 

 

Edited by Crimson
Raziya, Lika, kaleidoscope and 9 others like this

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Hi again everyone. In my last post which was in response to Tokei, I proposed an open staff forum on the points raised in the thread as a "resolution" to people's concerns. This meeting took place last night with a good majority of the staff members in attendance in at least some capacity. I'm going to fill you all in on what we discussed and what we're going to do in the future.

I came up with four key points for discussion that would drive the meeting with any supplementary points raised by anyone present towards the end. My four points were:

  •     Can we improve on how we currently present MH changes?
  •     Is there a satisfactory way to incorporate player-based feedback more so than we already do?
  •     How to better use insight from the team?
  •     Lessons learnt for the future.

Before I dive into these points, the first point we actually discussed was regarding "@spam". I may have said this previously somewhere but I want to go over why @spam has taken so long to appear in MH. I've put this in the spoiler tag if you're interested in this. If not, skip over it for the outcome.

Spoiler

This system was originally implemented a while ago and we discussed, as a team, whether it should be implemented in MH. However, as with all first implementations, it could have been buggy so we decided to hold off on adding it to MH until we knew it was bug-free. As the feature was tested and deemed to be working as intended, it fell down our list of priorities as other things took over and become more important. Basically, we forgot about it.


We realise this is super important for players with less than desirable ping. Therefore we will be enabling this for MH in the next patch.


 

Can we improve on how we currently present MH changes?

 

My first point was the big one and I included it so that we could actively discuss what seemed to be the biggest request from everyone in this thread, which was pre-announcing changes. For this we actually constructed a pros and cons list to better understand the ramifications of pre-announcing patch notes with an accompanying dev blog. This was resoundly declared a bad idea for myriad reasons. However, we did discuss other options and landed upon a good compromise for everyone's desire to know changes ahead of time whilst allaying our fears as developers. I will just quote exactly what was unanimously voted for so you can see for yourselves:

 

"Every patch will have a subsection for MH patch notes that are to be expected for the next maintenance. These notes will point to particular skills/items/roles and will provide a direction [increase/decrease] of the change, and offer as much detail as we can. Remember, these are changes that are being worked on, so all the details might not be available at the moment of the first announcement. These will be accompanied by a short, but explanatory, developer note similar to what we have done before."

 

Therefore we will be pre-announcing any MH-related changes ahead of time in the maintenance previous to the maintenance these changes will be affected. The idea behind this is not necessarily to gauge public opinion but instead to inform you all ahead of time. One our of concerns was that pre-announcing changes is going to negatively effect the market ahead of time which is going to be mitigated by the fact we won't be given in depth patch notes. We are advising everyone not to over-react and to instantly sell your gear in the expectation of your class/items/skills being "nuked from orbit".

 

With that being said, more members of the team will be taking an active role in MH development. This allows us the opportunity to approach balance changes in a different light. We will be attempting to make smaller, incremental changes (whether upwards or downwards) in future patches. Together with our data collection and analysis, this means we can achieve a more granular view than we were able to in the past.

 


 

Is there a satisfactory way to incorporate player-based feedback more so than we already do?

 

My second point examined player feedback. We have decided to open a new channel to suggest ideas to the team. Aimer has gracefully volunteered to moderate a new suggestions channel within the Hunter's Guild Discord channel dedicated to more "free-form" suggestions. Suggestions made in this way, however, are not guaranteed to be read or responded to; instead, please make suggestions on the forums if you want a guaranteed reply.

 

Keeping that in mind, we still recommend players to use the traditional method and post suggestions on our forums. I'm going to remind everyone now that at least one person will have actively read your MH suggestion thread here on the forums. It may not receive a reply instantly, or even quickly, but it will have been read nonetheless. We will not be pursuing the idea of commissioners or "veto power".

 

I'd also like to take this time to re-iterate what Nova posted previously: if you feel strongly about helping us to make MH content better overall, or want to take a more active role in MH development, apply to become part of the team. You do not have to be a GM. You do not have to host events or answer support tickets or anything like that. If you want to be an "MH developer", apply to be one and we will consider your application.

 


 

How to better use insight from the team?

 

Next up we discussed the position of MH content within the team. MH content has had a pendulum-like swing between who has been involved with development. At one end is the whole development team and at the other the "core" MH team (myself and Hector). The pendulum swings depending on what is required, what needs coded and so forth. More recently the pendulum has swung mostly towards the "core" team for two reasons: due to the poisoned chalice MH had become in the public sphere; and because at the conceptualisation phase (a la MH3) a smaller team is a streamlined team. These points led to MH development occuring almost behind locked doors (but not quite; if anyone wanted to get involved we were happy to allow them... but see point 1). This shift happened gradually and so was hard to see happening; however, we've taken stock of where we are and are opening up the wider team to MH development. We aren't forcing anyone in the team to be involved if they don't want to but we are taking a more pro-active role in asking others to get involved. We are also going to be more openly discussing our development plans with the wider staff as well so that they may jump in at any point with their opinions. Furthermore, our MH-only staff meetings, which were mostly just attended by myself and Hector (until recently) will be available for anyone to join. This should increase our intra-staff communication and increase the pool of opinions from which to draw from.

 


 

Miscellaneous

 

I'm going to wrap up now with some miscellaneous points.

 

Now with a larger team to help with MH, we will be able to undertake some tasks that couldn't before due to the manpower cost. In the near-future, this means the potential to revert more of the custom changes in preparation of MH3. In the mid- to long-future we will seek to reach an "equilibrium" with our balance changes. This means pairing positive changes with negative changes. For example, if "First Aid" was considered an overwhelmingly OP skill within MH, we would nerf that and seek to potentially buff "Play Dead" to make up for this. (I didn't want to use real skills in case someone took me out of context).

 

I also want to mention MH3. Again. I've said MH3 is going to solve most of our balancing issues and I wish to re-iterate that we still think this is the case. We've been keeping the new systems in MH3 under-wraps as some are still being conceptualised, but in the meeting yesterday, I explained this "miracle" system. There was broad, albeit tentative, agreement that MH3 will go a long way to addressing a lot of people's concerns with the long-term health of balance within MH. We're not ready to talk about this with you guys yet but rest assured we will at the easiest point we can. By the by, we will be doing a series of in depth dev blogs before MH3 release, similar to what we did with MH2, which is where we will probably discuss this more.

 

I've saved the best for last, shadow gear! Hector and I, along with some other members of the executive branch of the staff, discussed a couple of weeks ago how the waiting period between mobs being released was much longer than we had originally anticipated. To this end, it was probably prudent to release some of the shadow gear earlier than we had planned. I can say, as I hinted at in my last post, that we will be releasing some new shadow gear at the end of the series of role patches. We are still looking at which pieces will be released. Please keep your eyes peeled for this and know that it is coming soon.

 


 

And that's everything. This will likely be my last post in this thread ("more good news!") as I need to concentrate on the upcoming healer role patch. Hopefully this addresses most of the more important points people had. We hope this thread, this post, and these changes, help to go a little way in repairing the trust lost over the recent MH changes. Rest assured, we are still listening and value your opinions. I ask you to seriously consider sending us an application to join the MH development team. If this isn't for you, continue posting your suggestions and ideas because they are useful to us.

 

 

Skyrius, YuriAlph, kizzy and 13 others like this

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1 hour ago, Luxuri said:

Therefore we will be pre-announcing any MH-related changes ahead of time in the maintenance previous to the maintenance these changes will be affected. The idea behind this is not necessarily to gauge public opinion but instead to inform you all ahead of time. One our of concerns was that pre-announcing changes is going to negatively effect the market ahead of time which is going to be mitigated by the fact we won't be given in depth patch notes.

This is not gonna help the effect you guys have on the economy, quite the contrary instead. People will try to find what you mean with these vague patches and people will make huge bets on it.

Fu Windsword, Puros, Tudor and 1 other like this

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Please for the love of god consider releasing the other half of the extended class sets to atleast have a fair balance between the classes by having them have similar steps in gear before you give one half the gear and the others the full gear and then balance around that.

It would only come back to bite you in the ass later.


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I'm kind of confused, you said "We will not be pursuing the idea of commissioners or "veto power"."

But also said "If you want to be an "MH developer", apply to be one and we will consider your application." in the next paragraph

Isn't that essentially a near-identical role with just a prerequisite to work on mh2?


MoonlightFlower.gif Moonlight Flower says: "Here's Conga's Youtube Channel!"

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4 minutes ago, Conga said:

Isn't that essentially a near-identical role with just a prerequisite to work on mh2?

I believe they mean to send in a GM App.

Conga and Nova like this

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Luxuri : Post was super long but sadly super non-informative, didn't reply to single point in last of 5 pages. Seem's like there is no plan in future to change MH2 at all, and everything is about "MH3 will solve all", I hope that's true at least . And gl. 

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53 minutes ago, Conga said:

I'm kind of confused, you said "We will not be pursuing the idea of commissioners or "veto power"."

But also said "If you want to be an "MH developer", apply to be one and we will consider your application." in the next paragraph

Isn't that essentially a near-identical role with just a prerequisite to work on mh2?

 

49 minutes ago, Ara said:

I believe they mean to send in a GM App.


Yes, the idea is we're opening up slots in the MH Development team, without it needing to be a full traditional "Game Master" position. It will not be a commissioner system, and it will not consist of purely veto-ing or approving things, it will be a full fledged MH Development position where people will be able to help us better develop the content.

Puros and Conga like this

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1 hour ago, Osud said:

Seem's like there is no plan in future to change MH2 at all

Bruh, have you missed the part about role mini rework, new shadow set being released and custom changed being reverter at a faster pace? There are still points not covered, but you can't say there are no plans lol

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