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Luxuri

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Shouldn't you focus on buffing other classes if there's plethora of outliers that are highlighting GX's max potential?

 

Of course, I'm not questioning that the majority of player base of certain classes are barely comparable to these extreme outliers--however, these are outliers for reason because of very nature of RO in terms of gear progress. To me, Balancing the game based on outliers are really self-contradictory to the whole point of said nerf:

 

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So whilst we all want to be that top DPS GX player doing mad deeps, that vast majority of us aren't going to reach that level. The best take-away from this graph is actually that it doesn't particularly matter which class you're playing, so long as you're reasonably skilled and geared out, you're going to be doing similar damage to most other classes.

It seemed that the dev team clearly wanted to eliminate particular outliers but outliers play a very important role in games like RO--observing the full potential of the said class. Games like RO that really depend on refine rates and combinations of gears are essentially what makes those exponential growth of dps possible. However, what's these data are telling is NOT how GX has superior potential than any other classes but how other classes' potentials are stuck in bottleneck that even the high-end players couldn't break through or not willing to explore. Outliers always exist as long as kind of core gear progression exists that RO has, if not prevalent.

 

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The best take-away from this graph is actually that it doesn't particularly matter which class you're playing, so long as you're reasonably skilled and geared out, you're going to be doing similar damage to most other classes.

What I don't understand is that the majority of "reasonably skilled and geared out" population is impacted neither for better or worse because this was specifically aimed to high-end outliers population, yet this is the landscape of MH dev team want to go for--where you have, if not aim to have, a standard distribution of DPS to achieve intended clear time for intended content and you're willing to strike any class that escapes this little prison of data.

 

It seems that the dev team has VERY clear idea of what ideal clear time for these contents are and want to curb any outlier dps and this frankly going to deteriorate player base regardless of their skill or gear resource because there is an artificial barrier to the class that no one will want to delve into exploring, creating this awkward atmosphere of "reach first to die first." Low-end players however, will simply lose the goal to keep working on MH after certain point sooner than it should be because there's no metric of success they can strive to within MH.

 

I personally really like the whole thing about MH but it seems that there's this clear limitation tied to DPS--way too simple limitation that is defeated by simply having "a lot." Is there any other countermeasures of what keeps this kind of conten difficult other than having more HP, nerfing the DPS? Because you know, playing a DPS class in role-based MMO is to reach as high DPS as possible, regardless of class. If anything, any other DPS classes should have that kind of outliers.

 

At this point I am quite curious: Is the Dev team literally babysitting their "high-end" content because how the extreme high-end players are butchering it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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So many questions.
Hopefully, these things were considered on the upcoming balance patch.

 

Where and what is the baseline for MH balance?
Is it completion time?
DPS Data analysis from the graphs?

 

Have you considered the specific class roles? such as close, ranged, tank and supports?
Single target DPS, AOE DPS, Party Buff/debuff, party setup, consumables, and traps?
Have you ever watched these top DPS player gameplay? and how it's done?
Have you considered the skill gap of players?

 

I don't mean to leave any minor classes left out but do we even have enough data to consider minor class a low DPS?
Has anyone done testing by investing a similar amount of zeny that top DPS player from each class shown in graphs?
Do we even know if these top DPS players are wearing similar value of investment?
Has any other class spent as much as the top GX player has spent to make valid complaints?

 

There are many items and rewards gated by MH and what's the point of running MH?
To gear up yes? getting rewards and by doing so, you gear up towards endgame.
I understand that the developer has to be fair and protect their contents but
what is wrong with geared and veteran players completing the content faster than the others?
I mean if there is a problem with the completion time then my suggestion is that you add a set of MH specific gears and skills so everyone has a chance to enjoy the contents and be fair about it.
Or set a limit to DPS, HP, SP... etc according to your definition of balance.
Apparently, gears and time investment doesn't matter at this point.

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the original MH games are content that is prime for speedrunning, and speedrunning people do.

 

But the barrier to do so has always been investment in optimizing your gear, hours of farming, and then hours of mastering every little movement of the monster, and even then praying to RNG you get a good roll on attacks as there will be some element of randomness present. Thus there aren't actually many people who can go "meta" and cookie-cutter builds there as they require surviving on low hp, never getting hit, the right time of staggers and breaks etc.

 

And these graphs...really show that especially in the DPS distribution.

 

Adding in a 0.35s cd to CI rather than full 0.7s could have been a baby first step in looking at the data, and you'd probably want to look at shorter data cycles given this is a living content. This way you can make incremental changes rather than slapping people, even those that are already struggling at the bottom, to the face with a SAED.

 

Now though it's too late, people are slapped hard and you'll lose precious data from people rerolling into another class, only to see another spike in cases of outliers in a different scene. You may then find the names of these people on the outliers to be the same, the ones who has the capability to really do speedruns and will do so because it is their adrenaline rush. Meanwhile those who have no such capability to do so may end up just...buying leeches rather than actually trying to participate into the content, participating only because Shadow Gears and BSBs are a way of maximizing a class.

 

so moving forward I hope you'd look at shorter data cycles and incremental changes rather than big slaps of SAED to the face while in a Pitfall trap in front of a Dragonator, except we're just a Jagras in an arena.

StrayCat, Gaghiel, Raziya and 3 others like this

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Posted (edited)

While we're on this whole MH DPS topic I will say that I think it's frankly insulting for people who don't live in North America that @spam isn't enabled in MH yet (at least as far as I know, someone please correct me if I'm wrong). The justification for that was that MH isn't ready for a "DPS increase", but @spam is NOT a DPS increase, it just lets people who live in other locations match those who live in NA, and reduces the impact of low ping outliers.

 

I have a friend who has a geared to the teeth spammy DPS job, but because of their ping they do much less damage than an NA person playing the same character with the same gears. So what do they do when they're doing MH? Just swap accounts with NA friend and play support. The party's DPS output remains the same but my friend can't play the job they want to play because of a limitation resulting from Gravity's bad coding that the Nova staff has a working solution for, and actively choose not to implement, all in the name of artificially keeping clear times higher solely for people in high ping countries.

 

Why exactly should my DPS be lower just because of where I live? If you think DPS is too high, adjust it for everyone, not just for high ping players.

Edited by Shall
dell, Sukoru, ninpou and 16 others like this

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Shall said:

@spam isn't enabled in MH yet

Especially considering the fact that we are locked at 5 attacks per second so the effective damage increase is capped anyway so no point in disabling it

Tudor likes this

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After reading everything, I'm still displeased or not convinced.

 

The whole point of this post seems like "GX is making huge numbers and RK is not far behind, but we decided to nerf GX instead!"

 

@Ariasmen is right. You take away all the investments (time, zeny, real money) of the people with this fiasco. While RK had minimal changes with MH content, GX had their EDP damage reduced, their SbK nerfed and now their CI gone and poof.

 

So, why not make a commission for MH with developers and players?  It feels like a roulette. "Abracadabra, let's nerf this class/skill!"

 

I'm a GX-MH2 user until we got hit by the nerfhammer. I invested everything to my GX, only to deal sub-par damage compared to RK who seems like your favorite class. (I play RK now and it feels so bad...) Right now, I invite GX people because a lot of GX gets rejected in MH parties because of this nerf.

 

---

 

I know you guys actually played the actual Monster Hunter. And hunters farm over and over again to invest in gears, weapons, armors, decorations and the like in order to do cheese strats. Some actually gets toned down but the actual weapon doesn't "die out" and players will get over the toning down... However, what you did is taking away one of the decent remaining kit of a class.

 

Right now, players are gonna invest to another class and will find ways to cheese strat under 5-7 minutes. And when you're unsatisfied with the cheese strat, you'll probably go "Woop dee doo, nerf dee doo." again. 

 

---

 

Give other class the buff they need. You guys don't like the term of META for MH, but there is barely any class topping the charts (Less than 5), and mostly the Wyvern is full of RKs like in a ratio of 70% RKs, 30% other classes.

Ingthor likes this

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4 hours ago, Izzy said:

My concern is that you are only worried about DPS, which yes that's a nice metric, but GX is also a glass cannon. My RK and GX might be similar in DPS, but my RK can take an ice meteor to the nose and shrug it off. GX splats. Something to consider should also be what makes a class worth playing: more damage or more stability?

4 hours ago, Luxuri said:

Great point in the first paragraph - it's not really something we can capture with the data. We count the amount of deaths per person in the run but this doesn't really show us much. For example, you're going to be much more conservative in your DPS if it's possible for the mob to one-shot you. This is something we have to rely on player input for, as well as what we experience ourselves when we play the content.

 

Another thing that you can consider, and i'm pretty sure you can capture with the data you currently have now, is about Team Composition. Some Classes' Damage soar higher when paired with another class, but doesn't give benefit to some other classes. An Example of this would be Using Mechanic's Weapon Perfection to Boost Katar's Size Modifer and Analyze to Increase Defense Bypass , while those 2 Skills won't do anything to an RK Wielding Two-Hand Sword and using Wind Cutter(100% Size to Large, and 100% Defense Bypass.

 

There's also this Pseudo-DPS(My own term, i'm not sure what to call it) where a GX Paired with other Melee DPS, meaning that the other Melee DPS beside GX is Boosted with GX's Dark Claw, Resulting in whatever boost the Dark Claw has to the other Melee DPS added to GX's DPS ad Pseudo-DPS. For an example,
Assuming Dark Claw boost is 20%(Random number, I'm not currently basing this off anything not even the skill itself), When a GX is Paired with an RK, 20% of That RK's DPS is Actually GX's Pseudo-DPS, Because unless that RK is Paired with GX, the RK won't be able to deal that high of a damage.

 

I Really like how the NovaRO Team works, where they actually listens to the discussion their players do whether it's a Praise or a Complain. But just like all other decisions involving a lot of people, it's gonna be a Struggle to make Everyone Happy. Instead people often choose to make only the Majority Happy.

 

Keep Strong NovaRO Team.

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Also I want to make a point some classes need high amount of zenny to be viable as DPS of MH2, some class did not need that.

 

Also, sometimes a class just not viable outside MH.

 

If you want to be non meta, u need to put unholy amount of zenny to be viable, for example look at ranger, it needs to at least a ME5 headgear, only to see his build not viable outside MH.

 

The reason why they meta because they easy to build.

 

Also I want to say, some dps require less money, when 1 week before balance, my lindy hop RK has a little less dmg than my GX with safety katar (my GX dont have class set, cuz im really worried infesting too deep to MH, and its proven how bad the balancing). Now when this balance patch hits. I just have no reason to play GX, why I play a class that require 4x more zenny to be viable while my 1x zenny class viable AF? Well at least I have backup class.

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7 hours ago, Luxuri said:

(Couple of off-topic comments: props to that damage role AB, good try there pal. To pre-empt the questions, no we will not be releasing which characters hit these numbers!)

just want to say, to whoever this AB is, you are my hero kudos to you !!! keep the jank alive !!!

As for this whole MH2 discussion, i dont have enough info/experience with the content to make a decent statement, but i do wish you (devs and players) find a compromise. Stay safe mah dudes and be well

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