Jump to content
Luxuri

Monster Hunting Developer's Blog

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, Play3r said:

I have been playing this game for like 4 years off and on so I’m a pretty casual player. Can not see for the life of me how people can be bothered playing any DPS class in PvP or PvM. You get the best gear then next month a new patch comes out and all the sudden your gear isn’t BIS and your back to eternal farming or your character gets an overall nerf like GX in this instance and your screwed. If I have learnt one thing is just stick to tank roles so you don’t lose any money/time. In MH I try play tank ministrel and in PvP I play shadow chaser. Two fairly cheap classes in which the meta hasn’t changed. Tried going DPS once, bought all my gear and then when I try to sell it cause the role is no longer valid the items are 50% cheaper. Constant bad investments. Take it from me if you are a casual player don’t even bother going DPS.

That's what I'm planning to do if they nerf my RK's... I just give up, and playing tank class. Why bother to spend zenny to "congratulations u got nerfed" content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the challenge is to build other endgame contents to all jobs (no exceptions). MH (at least the current one) is definitely not for every single Ragnarok job. To be more clear: People just want to earn their BSBs as a super geared endgamer Super Novice, Soul Reaper, Kagerou, GENETIC, etc...

Tudor likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ninpou said:

I already tell it before... I will tell it again.

 

Cap

The

Final

Damage

 

Bloody hell, u want your content to be action RPG yet u don't know how these player have these ridicilous dmg.

 

Okay, what makes GX so broken in your chart.

 

First they use penetration set that give 40%, then use AB penetration buff, then last, they use the mechanic as tank. This will put your monster defense to ZERO. These couple with +9 racial shadow gear will put your monster melts like nothing.

 

If u want be super broken speedrun, bring a sorc too.

 

There, a single guy with max dps can bring monster down under 3 minute.

 

The reason why ppl dont do that, cuz mecha is so rare, and finding a good dps that can match with gameplan is hard.

 

If u want everybody playing same level of dps, its gonna be hard without any cap on the dmg.

 

This is like, for real not even the last balance patch from gravity, if u saw the broken stuff they gonna put in your game, they gonna melt monster even more.

 

Also, what I cannot understand is...

 

Why u guys really hate when player cheese your PVE content? Is it because of BSB price? Or u just want people have same dps, so people can trying?

If it just bsb price, revamp the weekly system, so people can see MH as optional content, basically 3 RO content, and 3 MH content, no completion bonus. This way u can stop people from leeching. And people hate MH just skip the weekly.

 

 

 

Something to consider as to why I asked series of questions before.

I don't believe GX alone can reach these numbers without proper party setup, buffs, traps and items.(endgame gears but also specific items enables skills.)

Reasons why GX players are upset due to this 'potential' only to be seen by few groups of players.

 

There are few other things to be considered but your data only shows numbers and not the real problem as you can't see what players are doing exactly.

 

Edited: You are probably seeing the exact same graph with specific class already

 

Edited by coast9981

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, coast9981 said:

 

Something to consider as to why I asked series of questions before.

I don't believe GX alone can reach these numbers without proper party setup, buffs, traps and items.(endgame gears but also specific items enables skills.)

Reasons why GX players are upset due to this 'potential' only to be seen by few groups of players.

 

There are few other things to be considered but your data only shows numbers and not the real problem as you can't see what players are doing exactly.

 

 

I can understand the developer want to make this game like dark souls/MH when u got the mechanics and stuff to roll and do some random stuff. But is just not gonna work without damage scaling or maybe some commisioner to balance stuff. It has same problem with Nioh. Nioh considered same difficulty like dark souls, until people realized that game don't have any damage cap, in midgame every bossfight die in less than 3 second. If u dont believe me, see video nioh one shot build (yes, that the endgame content feels like, buff, debuff, oneshot, get the loot, repeat), not even the boss has chance to use his moves.

 

I only see 3 way out, pick your poison.

 

1. Make MH commisionner who knows what they doing, so people won't be cucked.

2. Soft cap the damage of ridicilous skill.

3. Bring custom weapon on MH to slay the freaking monster. So we can get same dps even new content hits.

Edited by ninpou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Luxuri said:

So my question to those who have raised this point is: how do we best approach this situation? Rather than complaining your investment is "useless", help us to come up with solutions that can mitigate this situation in the future.

@Luxuri @Hector

It's simple, just:

 

1.- Be transparent with the information. Announce every single change with at least 1 week, make it public and recieve feedback. Submit it to discusssion in the forum. Expose the collected data, just like you did in this Topic, and read what people thinks about it. People is reasonable, they will understand if you show them with graphycis that GX is doing 200% the DPS of other jobs, so they need to be nerfed. No matter how small you think a change is, just do it. You can even make polls to have a measurable data about what the majority of people believes (you are NOT FORCED to follow the result of the poll, but with  the poll you can have a measurable data about the opinion of people). At the end of the day, no one knows the content better than the ones that play the content, so their opinion is a relevant factor to consider.

 

 

2.- Before nerfing characters, consider buffing your monsters: 

 If you want to tone down the damage of a specific branch (like Magic or Physical), RO already has the Official tools to do so:

  • VS Melee: High hard DEF, Recovery Conversion, Stone Skin and Reflect shield,
  • VS Ranged: High hard DEF, Recovery Conversion, Stone Skin, Defender and Pneuma
  • VS Magic: High MDEF, Recovery Conversion and Magic Mirror.

Now, leaving official tools aside,  MH2 is full custom content, so you have pretty much the freedom to do anything. Be creative!! I'll just give you an example: How to encurage the use of Genetics and Dorams and SE, DPS? You could make a skill that deals  exactly X (or X%) amount of damage in AOE (only reductable by Size reduction like KK). So it kills only Two-handed weapon players (like RK and GX), thus encouraging the use of DPS that wear Shield (like Genetic, Doram and SE). This is just a rough example, i know you can make it better.

 


2.- Keep the CUSTOM ALTERATIONS over Jobs to the Minimum. If you think a job is over the limits you want to see (like 30M per second), just directly nerf the  damage formula of only the "specific skills" you think that are harmful (let's say, Wind Cutter, Soul Breaker and CI). This way you don't harm other builds that are rarely to never used (like IB or Rolling Cutter).
Also, if you don't create weird alterations (like making skills don't crit), the Gear that a GX uses for Official content. also works for MH2. So people don't have to make double investment in Gear (one for Official Content and other for MH2). Instead of that, just directly reduce the damage of skills.

 

4.- Give Full Class Shadow sets for Expanded Classes (and Doram): Never undestood why you released 3-1 and 3-2 Full Class Shadow sets, but not the ones for expandeds. It doesn't make any sense. 3-1 and 3-2 has always been the ones that recieve more attention from KRO designers. I don't think is healthy for you to foment that.

 

5.- Unbound both BIS and Meme locked gears: Right now, there's  untradeable BIS gear locked behind MH, both for PVP and PVM. And also meme gear (like Bomb Ranger and Adoramus AB shadow sets). This has a major impact in the market, since people is forced to do MH, either they like the content or not. Even if they don't even like PVM and just play RO for PVP. This turns MH into a necessity rather than an option, and results in problems like Leeching services and MH-Drama. Some billionaire people pay for leeching, not because they're ungeared, but bause they don't want to play the content and they just need the Shadow Gears. People is playing the content obligated. No matter how you see it, this is deffinitively not healthy. If gear is unbound, people will have the option to play MH, not the obligation. The majority of people will still playing MH2, because is a nice source of Zeny. Even further, if you unbound the gear, you're creating a brand new source of Zeny for a lot of people, so even more people would play it.

 

ShuraBR, Homura, ninpou and 8 others like this

 Compilation of the Stories and Legends of all the MVP <---- Click Here 

Visit my Youtube Channel Here. <---- RO Youtube Channel

13  15

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shortly adressed my thoughts on the slippery slope of continuously tinkering with a large amount of core mechanics, but also on ideas how most player strats can be countered just fine using vanilla-mechanics almost a year ago when MH2 was introduced. Unfortunately my initial worries have been confirmed for the most part (creativity on the players behalf being responded to with nerfs).

 

If outliers have to be normalized at all costs, I can get behind hard-/soft capping skill damage (skill-reuse is already capped, so that's a consequent next step).

Hard-capping is the easier solution, while soft-capping (e.g. a diminishing returns formula) would still enable some minor advantage for coming up with insane strats without breaking the game completely. The main benefit of introducing caps is that it would not punish beginner-/mid-tier players (like most current GX MH-nerfs do), but only those on the extreme side. With a soft cap, those outliers can still have an edge, but it will only be that - a small advantage.

 


4 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Fu Windsword said:

 

3.- Unbound both BIS and Meme locked gears: Right now, there's  untradeable BIS gear locked behind MH, both for PVP and PVM. And also meme gear (like Bomb Ranger and Adoramus AB shadow sets). This has a major impact in the market, since people is forced to do MH, either they like the content or not. Even if they don't even like PVM and just play RO for PVP. This turns MH into a necessity rather than an option, and results in problems like Leeching services and MH-Drama. Some billionaire people pay for leeching, not because they're ungeared, but bause they don't want to play the content and they just need the Shadow Gears. People is playing the content obligated. No matter how you see it, this is deffinitively not healthy.

If gear is unbound, people will have the option to play MH, not the obligation. The majority of people will still doing so, because is a nice source of Zeny. Even further, if you unbound the gear, you're creating a brand new source of Zeny for a lot of people

 

 

 

Agree with this part, i mostly play PVE, and just how i don't like to be forced to  play PVP, is easy for me to understand that full pvp players don't want to play MH2, but are forced to do so because some top gear is locked behind it 

And if you made  the shadow sets tradeable, maybe even more people would play MH, because they will be able to sell the shadow gears and earn more zeny.

Edited by Lady Amy
Fu Windsword and Vinterfagel like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Luxuri said:

So my question to those who have raised this point is: how do we best approach this situation? Rather than complaining your investment is "useless", help us to come up with solutions that can mitigate this situation in the future. We're will to listen and learn but at the end of the day, this is an MMO and changes and updates are going to happen that impact your investments (positively or negatively).

This has been said over and over on this topic alone. Just do gradual nerfs instead of Giant Nerf Hammers.
This would still make the builds usuable which in turn would keep the players playing them, which would not make gear devalue in price so quickly, which would give the devs the statistics required to know if the nerf/change was enough or would still require further tweaking.

In the case regarding a gradual nerf to CI, instead of 0s CD to 0.7s CD, it could have been changed to 0.35s instead, as that alone would already be a significant nerf.
From a CD of 0s to 0.7s, it effectively means a decrease of around 72% in the DPS (from 5 casts/s to 1.4 casts/s).
From a CD of 0s to 0.35s, it effectively means a decrease of around 40% in the DPS (from 5 casts/s to 3 casts/s).
For theorycrafting purposes, it is assumed perfect spam for both cases (ping and FPS as a non-issue). It can also be assumed that the outliers were playing on perfect conditions.
Even with the CI formula reverted to the official value (which you guys did, from 1500%->1750%), the smaller nerf to spam alone would still be a significant nerf to their damage, while not breaking everyone knees in one go.

Also, keep is mind what was said by @Luxuri: 

On 6/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, Luxuri said:

From preliminary data we've collected, there just aren't enough GX runs yet to make an informed estimate on how much DPS has decreased due to the nerf.

This means that the nerf was so drastic that most people gave up on playing it entirely.

Even though this is all just hindsight, more thoughful and gradual nerfs are much more healthy for our playerbase AND the devs alike, as the players can still keep playing their favorite Job or make continuous use of their investiments, and the devs will have enough statistics to know how impactful those actually were.

Then again, I have to agree that the ideal scenario would be to keep the custom alterations to Jobs as minimum as possible in MH2, as the Dev Team have proven over and over again they are incapable of proper steady balance adjustments. This might be due to the lack of manpower, foresight, relying too much on statistics alone or wrong ideas about the funtamentals, but regardless, if you can't fine tune jobs by yourself, keep it to a minimum.

I am not trying to insult the MH2 Devs, and am sorry if it sounded offensive, but this is just a reflection on what we as players have seen regarding changes regarding balancing, up to this point.

It's as @Fu Windsword said:

9 hours ago, Fu Windsword said:

Keep the CUSTOM ALTERATIONS over Jobs to the minimum.
Instead of that, if you think a job is over the limits you want to see (like 30M per second), just directly nerf the  damage formula of only the "specific skills" you think that are harmful (let's say, Wind Cutter, Soul Breaker and CI). This way you don't harm other builds that are rarely to never used (like IB or Rolling Cutter).


Also, as a sidenote, but not any all less important. Quite the contrary:

Enable @spam in MH2.

I think what @Shall said covers all the major points and it doesn't need to be explained any further as to why it should have happened weeks ago, when it was proven to be quite effective to reduce artificial "skillgap" due to ping.

 

Edited by Skyrius
Tudor likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@Luxuri You asked for solutions. First: put complete shadow sets for expanded classes to close the gap a little (Kagerou could compete as dps with cross slash, Reaper would have buffed espa, dorams a stronger picky peck, etc) You want a diversified pool of DPS but you dont put us on equall conditions with official content, i would love a reasoned explanation of why expandeds and dorams are capped.                 

 

Second: Buff your monsters, stop nerfing the players. As Kruro said, you are killing creativity with your "balances", people always will look for cheese strats, you cant nerf us all the time, and new and more broken gear will be coming with future patches, are you going to delay content to protect your custom playground? I suggested in another thread a tier system for bosses, an example: if the boss has descendend to X% of their life before Y amount of time, then that boss will do new mechanics to give the players a more challenging fight.

That way average geared people have a reasonably hard fight and the outliers, that people who put a lot of effort in strats, team compositions and gear, will be challenged too, but also will probably have a shorter run if they do good (but with more probabilitys of being wiped if they do wrong). You dont have to even invent new skills, you can make use of the skills the game have as Fu proposed. If a DPS is doing mad damage then the boss pops stone skin or earthquake for example, but if the dps is average, the fight will be not that mad in consonance. This way you just have to adjust your rage tier system everytime new content is bringed (less frecuent and with no impact in player's economy) instead of nerfing players everytime they come with cheese strats or insane dmg ( more frecuent nerfs that affect mostly less geared players because of outliers real or "potential" damage and the zeny and time of hardcore players) 

 

Third: Also, if you could unbound shadow sets and other official content from your custom playground that would be great. BSB is not a problem because you can buy them, but shadow sets are essential to endgame and you force us to play MH. I personally play Ninja and RG and had to create other chars just for playing MH, or pay leechs or wait until some friends wanted to party or die waiting for random partys. MH with your balance process have a smaller pool of classes everytime and you force us to play it even if we dont like it. Maybe if you unbound shadow sets from MH you can have golden data of how much people actually plays the content if they are not forced to, and do changes in consonance to do it more enjoyable if you have poor results.

Edited by Rayle1gh
Vinterfagel likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 6/1/2020 at 2:32 PM, Luxuri said:

This point is not meant to dunk on everyone's "poor performance" - in fact, these numbers are much more in line with what we were expecting when creating the content. What is problematic are those larger whiskers and outliers differing vastly from the rest of the data. Whilst some classes are better than others, and certainly have larger potential DPS output than others, at the end of the day, for the majority of players, that shouldn't matter and the mindset of "GX are no longer meta" is completely unfounded - go play whichever class you want and you should be doing just as well as everyone else (except that damage role AB, that one might actually not work...).

Kinda sad to read this after I finally made my Judex AB build and refined my hat to +12...

At least you could try to make it decent on MH, but that sounds like you don't even want to think about it. /hmm

I agree that MH changes shouldn't be all about nerfs, if you really want to see different classes with different builds, then try to apply some buffs too, balance can be achieved making weakest classes stronger and not just making strongest classes weaker.

For example: There are a lot of classes that could be decent on MH as DPS if they had custom CD on some skills... Arm Cannon is one of these. If you reduce the CD of AC, mechanic players could have a chance to play their classes as DPS on MH, and not being forced to play as tanks. On other skills you could increase its damage, maybe reduce some fixed casting or something else, I think you get my point.

 

Maybe is a hard work what I'm asking, but at least I hope you'll consider it. /bo

fendi7801 and dell like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...